Fixing Casters, the Right Way

[ValhallaGH]

Hmm. I suppose, it seems the majority of your spells are damage based, and I guess that is a bit of a conflict of interest to me because I tend to focus primarily on the other spells which I can either do creative things with or things that are effective not-based on damage. The fact that they were turned into standard damage dealers was one of the things I disliked most about 4e.

*shrug*

TS and 4E came across the same phenomenon, namely that damage is vastly easier to balance than "he fails his save and loses". HP are characters' story protection, and that holds true on both sides of the screen. Having a whole other mechanic that completely bypasses that protection and devolves it to the level of a coin flip (albeit with a wider variable) just feels odd, especially when it's a standard combat ability.
That's similar to a comic book character being able to pull out a jar of Wite-Out and erase Superman (or Spiderman or Batman or whoever) from the rest of the pages, thereby killing the character in-universe. Because he had a jar of Wite-Out.

4E simply tied things to existing combat mechanics. TS is keeping the effects, but making them dependent upon relative levels of story protection; anything that can do what you can do is largely unaffected because he's too important to the scene / story. A hard-coded DM fiat, which I have no problem with when used responsibly (as it seems to be used here).

You're certainly clever enough to mull that through, so I'll not belabor the point further. I am curious how you choose to respond.

 

[Celebrim]

You're certainly clever enough to mull that through, so I'll not belabor the point further. I am curious how you choose to respond.

I've debate this for a while myself. To begin with, it isn't for me as important that NPC's (even BBEG's) enjoy story protection as it is that PC's enjoy it. And in particular, I've decided that on the whole the 'single BBEG takes on the whole party' trope is not necessarily something that I have to worry about too much and if I do, I can always grant the NPC specific resistances and immunity.

My answer thus far is making saving throws easier, and to allow for 'second' and 'third' chances.

So, for example, someone hits you with a death spell of some sort. To begin with, the DC of the spell doesn't depend on spell level. So, right off the bat you are now 30% or more likely to save vs. the effect. This puts us more back into how 1e balanced the effects - high level characters normally make there save.

Addiitonally, because the PC's are heroes, they have a stock of 'Destiny Points' which they can use to buy rerolls. Thus, so long as they haven't run out of destiny, they don't have to fear a single roll quite as much.

But, additionally, even if you fail your saving throw vs. a death spell, you don't actually immediately die. What the spell actually does is drop your hit points so that you are on the verge of death (-9 hit points, for example). So, then, you have a chance of stablizing on death's door as a third chance to escape death and can be aided by friends.

If I want a BBEG fight, I'm very likely to give the BBEG the same sort of advantages - destiny points, allies, and so forth.

On the whole, I don't see this as being any worse than a PC scoring a massive critical and short circuiting the fight (or an NPC doing the same and dropping a character). If there isn't some sort of randomness, then fights turn into statistical grinds with outcomes that are virtually preordained. There is such a thing as too much story protection I think.

However, I've considered from time to time even more radical changes - like giving every character Fatigue, Willpower, and Initiative points that protect against Fortitude, Will, and Reflex damage and rewriting a spell like Charm so that it does Willpower damage/save for half + plus does something like dazes on a failed save - and if the spell destroys the targets Will (reduces willpower points to zero) then it also produces the Charm effect. Or similarly, Baneful Polymorph does Fatigue damage/save half, and if it destroys the target's fatigue then the target also turns into a newt. There is a certain 'cool' to that, but its also a bit cumbersome and requires a huge rewrite of the entire game system I've been unwilling to undertake.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Interesting post, Celebrim. That's an unusual but effective way to make "Save or Die" a bit less fatal while still capable of fundamentally altering the fight. Something I'll need to think further about.

There is such a thing as too much story protection I think.

On that point I am in absolute agreement. If I wanted to hear the exciting adventures of how characters X, Y, and Z saved the world and got stupidly rich then I'd go read a book, not sit down for a gaming campaign (in which the forementioned characters could do the same things, or die trying).

I'm intrigued by your additional damage types, and how they protect against spell effects. It's (obviously) an extension of the hit point concept, and oddly has some parallels with how 4E chose to translate some of those effects.
When I first read your post, I misread it as temporary damage to your saving throw bonuses, which was even more intriguing if less ballanced. Though if your save bonuses refreshed at the end of each round, or possibly the end of each turn, then it might be workable and interesting.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Hmm. I suppose, it seems the majority of your spells are damage based, and I guess that is a bit of a conflict of interest to me because I tend to focus primarily on the other spells which I can either do creative things with or things that are effective not-based on damage. The fact that they were turned into standard damage dealers was one of the things I disliked most about 4e.

*shrug*

Well, I am guilty as charged on that account. As ValhallaGH says, dd and bonus-granting spells are easiest to balance which is why I started with them. I do intend to add more non-damage spells as the urge strikes me, or as I'm requested.

4E simply tied things to existing combat mechanics. TS is keeping the effects, but making them dependent upon relative levels of story protection; anything that can do what you can do is largely unaffected because he's too important to the scene / story. A hard-coded DM fiat, which I have no problem with when used responsibly (as it seems to be used here).

That's an excellent way to put it.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm intrigued by your additional damage types, and how they protect against spell effects. It's (obviously) an extension of the hit point concept, and oddly has some parallels with how 4E chose to translate some of those effects.

For the record, my idea predates the publication of 4e. And I don't think its odd that there are some parallels. FantasyCraft also has some parallels to my suggestion in there attempted fix of 3.X. I don't personally feel either is as elegant as I would have liked, or what I outline here, but I'm not surprised that I'm not the only designer that has had similar thoughts.

Not that my idea is perfect. I'm concerned about its effect on play speed for one thing, and I also wonder whether it would in practice not lead to the same sort of 'bad save' situations found in 3.X. But I'm just throwing it out there as an example of how you don't have to get rid of big dramatic effects either by removing them or by adding in all these fiat immunities.

I think 4e fixes nothing. Whenever it finds some challenge with smithing out a rule, it simply removes the option from play. I consider this on one hand to be the mark of lazy design and on the other hand to be somewhat conscending to the player. They ended up producing a system with as few options as a rules light system, and as much fiddly bits as a rules heavy system.

When I first read your post, I misread it as temporary damage to your saving throw bonuses, which was even more intriguing if less ballanced.

Well, something like this would happen. If you run out of Fatigue points, you are 'fatigued'. If you run out of Willpower, you'd be shaken 'shaken'. If you run out of Initiative, you'd 'distressed' and have a penalty on your reflex saves and initiative until you could recover.

 

[ValhallaGH]

That's an excellent way to put it.

Understanding is my main strength as a designer. I tend to understand intents and chosen methods, which helps compensate for my lack of encyclopedic knowledge about interactions and the occasional lack of creativity.

For the record, my idea predates the publication of 4e.

That wasn't in doubt (at least not to me).

I think 4e fixes nothing.

Which is why some find the parallels odd, despite the logical chain that leads to the idea of using a form of hp for the assorted non-damage effects.

Certainly worthy of further consideration.

 

[Sylrae]

Well guys, ValhallaGH;

I agree on giving the characters some kind of story protection, I just disagree with tying them all to hit points, as I find hit points relate too much to your body (corporeal or not) being damaged > even though I know that it doesnt realistically work that way, how does everyone describe taking damage to their players?

In some cases, ability score damage would be a good way to go though. Especially if you want to have some granularity in the utility of your spells. So if it doesn't quite work, you can still have some effect from it. As mentioned with the rogue example, Sneak Attack MIGHT kill you, or it might just do damage. Flesh to Stone MIGHT kill you and make you a statue, or do nothing. I'd propose making it work more often, but not necessarily turn you to stone. Maybe it just does Constitution Damage, which would make future spells/effects more likely to give their full effect.

But As for how I presently have dealth with things, and comments on Celebrim's post, I'm inclined to agree with Celebrim on how he suggested dealing with the effects, and have actually been using similar houserules to many of his suggestions for quite a while. I use Action Points(now with trailblazer rules), death spells dropping you into your bleed instead of straight dead (Though I have them drop you to -1, not -9). Your bleed count is expanded, bleeding is a FORT save that scales up the further you go into your death count, not a flat d10 roll, but I don't make the DCs any easier or provide extra saves. That's why they have the action points. Save or Loss spells that don't kill you outright are only protected by the Action Points though, and that's mainly because I wasn't sure how to deal with that one. The above suggestion may work.

That's similar to a comic book character being able to pull out a jar of Wite-Out and erase Superman (or Spiderman or Batman or whoever) from the rest of the pages, thereby killing the character in-universe. Because he had a jar of Wite-Out.

They have that. Her name is Scarlet Witch. She can rewrite reality. In addition, it's made her go kindof insane so she can't tell which things are actually real, because of her ability to rewrite reality. Though last I heard she rewrote herself into a powerless human. But that's an aside really.

Awaiting your responses.

~Sylrae

 

[ValhallaGH]

I agree on giving the characters some kind of story protection, I just disagree with tying them all to hit points ...

That's fair. Hit points are a long way from the only form of story protection. You seem to have embraced other forms of limited resources already, which is good. It really helps make up for those truly terrible rolls that would end a character's story in an unworthy manner.

In some cases, ability score damage would be a good way to go though. Especially if you want to have some granularity in the utility of your spells. ... Flesh to Stone MIGHT kill you and make you a statue, or do nothing.

Falvor-wise, DEX damage is more appropriate (turning small pieces to stone until finally paralyzes the whole body and turns you completely to stone).
I think it would be much more interesting if it did Fortitude damage, and turned you fully to stone if it reduced you to +0 or lower fort save. Then it could deal XdY of Fort damage (For negates) or (save for half). Fun stuff.
The only issue being how quickly do your saving throws recovery from being drained? I'd go with some (fast) amount per round, like +3 or similar, so that there's a bit of a lingering effect but it probably won't last the entire fight.

They have that. Her name is Scarlet Witch. She can rewrite reality.

1) Marvel's known for having insanely powerful characters that they have no idea how to restrain (other than make them crazy and unwilling / unable to function). See Sentry, Hulk, Thanos, Phoenix, etc.
2) There's only one Scarlet Witch (per dimension). Not every powerful caster-villain in the setting can write a troublesome hero out of existence by using a standard high-power attack like Disintegrate, Wail of the Banshee, Power Word Kill, etc.
3) The price of the Witch's rewrites has been an increasingly large break with reality. That's much more than one of today's high-level spell slots, and maybe some XP.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I agree on giving the characters some kind of story protection, I just disagree with tying them all to hit points, as I find hit points relate too much to your body (corporeal or not) being damaged > even though I know that it doesnt realistically work that way, how does everyone describe taking damage to their players?

In the past, I've simply tried not to think about hp. I'm a bit of a simulationist, and their abstract nature gets under my skin. Anyway, my current way of dealing with hp is to describe them as actual wound capacity. I can get away with this because my campaign is set in the Exalted world, where the PCs are all infused with magical awesomeness. So it's not a stretch for a PC to receive a gaping chest wound, keep right on fighting and then simply squeeze his own ribs back together after the fight so that his flesh recloses over the wound.

In some cases, ability score damage would be a good way to go though.

As much as ability damage is annoying to implement during a fight, I can see the value of using it for partial effects. I'll work on it.

They have that. Her name is Scarlet Witch. She can rewrite reality. In addition, it's made her go kindof insane so she can't tell which things are actually real, because of her ability to rewrite reality. Though last I heard she rewrote herself into a powerless human.

Why the heck would she do that, when she could simply rewrite herself into a being with just-short-of-omnipotent power? Comic books are silly.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Tell me what you think of these:

Avada Kedavra
Necromancy [Death]
Level: (Arcane, Death) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Component: M, S, V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 5 minutes
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You drain the vitality out of the target, who takes 2 Constitution damage each round on your turn. A successful Fortitute save ends the spell, preventing further Constitution loss. A target who reaches 0 Constitution dies.

Charm
Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: (Arcane) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Component: M, S, V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 5 minutes
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You sap the target’s will, until it becomes friendly to you. The target takes 4 Wisdom damage each round on your turn. A successful Will save ends the spell, preventing further Wisdom loss. A target who reaches 0 Wisdom will consider you its friend until the spell ends, and hear your requests in the most positive way possible. If you do anything aggressive towards the target or its allies, this effect ends.

Dominate
Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: (Arcane) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Component: M, S, V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 5 minutes
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You sap the target’s will, until it becomes a slave to your commands. The target takes 2 Wisdom damage each round on your turn. A successful Will save ends the spell, preventing further Wisdom loss. A target who reaches 0 Wisdom will follow your verbal commands until the spell ends, so long as they are not obviously suicidal.

Flesh to Stone
Transmutation
Level: (Arcane) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Component: M, S, V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Target: One creature
Duration: Concentration, up to 5 minutes; see text
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You petrify the target’s flesh. The target takes 4 Strength and Dexterity damage each round on your turn. A successful Fortitude save ends the spell and prevents further ability loss. A target who reaches 0 Strength is permanently petrified, relieving you of the need to maintain concentration.