D&D 5E Fixing Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary

Northern Phoenix

Adventurer
Again, you're purely focusing on power. Removing concentration spells or this from the clerics choices during combat is balanced, but not interesting or fun. I don't want the cleric feeling like healing everyone every round is the choice they need to make rather than using their most interesting spells (which require concentration). I feel like we got away from that choice in this edition, where the cleric no longer feels pressure to heal others with their action rather than cast their most interesting spells, and you'd have this cleric basically go right back to that situation. And it doesn't appear, in any way, to enforce the sub-class concept involved either - that choice doesn't feel "twilight" to me. It's purely a power balancing solution. And I appreciate it does accomplish that goal but I don't think it accomplishes the goals focused on making this a fun class to play.

The way the mechanics work, the cleric can always heal and attack, or always attack and heal. This choice is just about which way the scale is tilted. It is never all or nothing. in either direction.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
The way the mechanics work, the cleric can always heal and attack, or always attack and heal. This choice is just about which way the scale is tilted. It is never all or nothing. in either direction.
Which is why I said "most interesting spells (which tend to require concentration)" and not "attack." It's balanced, but not fun, and not very twilight. I can see that mechanic for a life cleric making sense though.

I can tell you for the concentration version, I'd make the choice every time to simply give my allies 6+level temporary hit points prior to battle, or save it for turning undead, and that would be that. Because I simply wouldn't want to give up concentration spells. And I don't think most Twilight cleric players would find that choice "fun." I feel it just adds more burden than flavor to the sub-class.
 

Dausuul

Legend
How about this change?

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you nearby areas of twilight become a sanctuary for your allies. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it This effect lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in an area of dim light within 30 feet of you the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:
  • You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
  • You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.

The idea is that you have to seek out areas of dim light and stay in them--and the enemy can mess you up either by extinguishing your light source or by bringing their own. I'm not sure if this would be enough, in practice, to balance the ability; but it would certainly play up the "twilight" flavor, and create more tactical considerations for both sides.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
that is the point. Ability is too strong currently to be in tandem with a active concentration spell.
Everyone understands the point. You're not addressing why people think it's not a good way to address the issue. You're just repeating you don't like it. We all get it man, that's why I created the thread. Do you have any other thoughts on ways to address the issue?
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Another option:

1st round: Effect works as stated

Subsequent rounds:
Cleric must use a bonus action to focus the soothing twilight on a target - granting the effects of the aura to that target (and only that target). Interferes with spells such as spiritual weapon, but that's the tradeoff.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
My suggestions (without concentration).

1. The ability only happens once and doesn't refresh on additional rounds.

2. Ability works as is but only a single target.

My twilight cleric doesn't use it that often due to action economy. She likes inflicting pain instead.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
that is the point. Ability is too strong currently to be in tandem with a active concentration spell.
No, it's not, especially at higher levels. Taking concentration hobbles a cleric trying to use it because of how much of their thematic and effective casting is tied up with concentration. Requiring concentration makes it weak never-use except when out of spell slots. As opposed to something properly balanced you will want to use about one a short rest.

Concentration is a non-starter at my table.
 

Northern Phoenix

Adventurer
No, it's not, especially at higher levels. Taking concentration hobbles a cleric trying to use it because of how much of their thematic and effective casting is tied up with concentration. Requiring concentration makes it weak never-use except when out of spell slots. As opposed to something properly balanced you will want to use about one a short rest.

Concentration is a non-starter at my table.

That's fair, but surely at this table no change is needed at all?
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
That's fair, but surely at this table no change is needed at all?
You're really making assumptions about me that are not supported by what I said.

I'm in a thread about balancing the CD, and I even talked about how I want it to be properly balanced - something you'd use once (or later twice) a short rest. To jump from those to "oh, you don't need/want any changes" seems like a real rationalization for dismissal.

It's perfectly possible to be for rebalancing but saying that one suggestion, taking in context of the class, shifts it too much. It's like if someone thought sneak attack was too powerful and wanted it to take an extra bonus action - a bonus action for extra damage isn't bad, but in terms of the rogue who already has a crowded bonus action economy it wouldn't be a viable solution for one of their keystone abilities.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Another option:

1st round: Effect works as stated

Subsequent rounds:
Cleric must use a bonus action to focus the soothing twilight on a target - granting the effects of the aura to that target (and only that target). Interferes with spells such as spiritual weapon, but that's the tradeoff.
So round 1 works on everyone. Round 2- forward, it's just a way to "activate" the cleric's bonus action? Hmmm... that could be an avenue...
 

I like the earlier idea of any creature only being able to benefit from it once. It's really simple and probably gets the job done, which is my gold standard for a house rule.
 

Horwath

Hero
Everyone understands the point. You're not addressing why people think it's not a good way to address the issue. You're just repeating you don't like it. We all get it man, that's why I created the thread. Do you have any other thoughts on ways to address the issue?
I made it in post #11.

Adding concentration is an OK fix without going further into the ability mechanics.
Even with concentration it could be too strong.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Actually, I'm thinking.

I like the Initial effect I chose (2d6+cleric level and strip either fear or charm), as that makes it feel beefy.

Advantage on (fear/charm) saves also works. The 1/2 cleric level (min 1) after the fact doesn't feel as good. How about proficiency bonus?

So, creatures of your choice who end their turn in the twilight aura gain temporary HP equal to your proficiency bonus.

So at level 14, you produce ~21 temporary HP on the entire party, then 5 renewing if it is stripped (instead of 7).

The main incentive to stay nearby is the initial temporary HP burst (because it fades if you leave the aura). Once stripped, the benefit of staying in the aura becomes a bit more moderate. I mean, 5 temporary HP/round isn't nothing.

"Leaving the aura" is probably too restrictive with how 5e movement works.

So a reword attempt:

---

Twilight Sanctuary

You can expend your channel divinity as an action in order to create a 30' radius aura of twilight centered on you that lasts for 1 minute and follows you around. The area is dimly lit, regardless of other light sources, except spells whose level is higher than your proficiency bonus can produce magical light or darkness that changes the light level in the region. Regions brightly lit or in darkness do not count as being inside the aura of twilight.

Creatures of your choice in the aura when you use this ability gain 2d6 plus your cleric level temporary HP, and you can remove one fear or charm effect they are subject to.

All creatures that are in the aura have advantage on saves against fear and charm effects.

Creatures of your choice who end their turn within the aura gain temporary HP equal to your proficiency bonus (remember, temporary HP do not add up; only the largest amount counts).

A creature with temporary HP granted by any part of this ability who ends their turn outside of the aura loses those temporary HP.

---

This intentionally lasts past your incapacitation and death. I'm ok with the dead cleric providing a sanctum of twilight to protect their allies, at least for the next minute. It seems perfectly thematic.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I made it in post #11.

Adding concentration is an OK fix without going further into the ability mechanics.
Even with concentration it could be too strong.
Can you think of another way to adjust it without concentration being the fix?
 

Sorry for the necro, I just reduced the radius to 10’ in line with a paladin aura, it also only works in darkness (non-magical) up to torchlight/lantern light to keep with the theme of twilight visibility. This limits it to night or underground/dungeon use and keeps the feel of being a dim light in the darkness.
YMMV.
IMHO, heat metal is much worse but I tweaked it as well.
 




Mort

Legend
Supporter
I have to be honest, I don't see this as overly powerful.

Having used it, in play - it is extremely powerful.

Think of it this way. Everyone in your party has an extra average 7 HP per round (at 4th level, gets higher as you level) that's like a maximum strength mass healing word except no further resources expended - EVERY ROUND. and it's not concentration so the Cleric can also put up bless or spirit guardians etc.
 

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