D&D 5E Fixing Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary

That is more than a fair complaint. Maybe the radius shrinks if underground?
Imho, underground and in darkness is when you would want it most, not a shrinking radius.

My best visual example is a group of adventurers in a dark cavern huddled around the cleric’s twilight aura, as he or she boldly presents her holy symbol. They look high and low, preparing to be attacked yet not knowing from where the enemy will strike.

maybe that’s too dramatic, but it’s where my heads at. 😊
 

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Azuresun

Adventurer
A tangent, sorry for that, but I dont get the link between twilight and this ability.

Or the connection between Twilight and heavy armour. Or the connection between Twilight as described in the subclass description and....basically any god in D&D except for Selune and maybe the Raven Queen.

It's not as bad as Hexblade in having a weak theme, but damn, it's close.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Or the connection between Twilight and heavy armour. Or the connection between Twilight as described in the subclass description and....basically any god in D&D except for Selune and maybe the Raven Queen.

It's not as bad as Hexblade in having a weak theme, but damn, it's close.
Indeed. I first thought of twilight as a new take on the trickery cleric, with more or a shadow domain vibe. But it does make any sense. They literally squished together a Protection domain and a Shadow domain (why? nobody knows) and it created a powerful archetype, but with mechanics that do not fit the theme.

Peace domain is a little better in this, I think. I feel it would be more of a Community/Hearth/Friendship domain, but its not far off.
 

Having used it, in play - it is extremely powerful.

Think of it this way. Everyone in your party has an extra average 7 HP per round (at 4th level, gets higher as you level) that's like a maximum strength mass healing word except no further resources expended - EVERY ROUND. and it's not concentration so the Cleric can also put up bless or spirit guardians etc.
I'll be honest. The way many people handwave balance, such as DM's advice to simply: "Increase the damage from the opposition" or "Simply have a counterspell or some other effect like incapacitated" makes it seem like this isn't that big of a deal.

I get your explanation, and it seems unbalanced when compared to other abilities of that level. Very unbalanced. But can't the DM just whip something up that levels the playing field?
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I'll be honest. The way many people handwave balance, such as DM's advice to simply: "Increase the damage from the opposition" or "Simply have a counterspell or some other effect like incapacitated" makes it seem like this isn't that big of a deal.

I get your explanation, and it seems unbalanced when compared to other abilities of that level. Very unbalanced. But can't the DM just whip something up that levels the playing field?

The DM has infinite Dragons - of course he can whip up something to challenge the PC and the party.
But that just proves the point - if the DM is consistently "whipping up" something to challenge a specific ability - that shows the ability is overpowered. Said another way: Just because the DM can fix it/rule 0 it/challenge it - does not mean the ability is OK!

That's like saying no ability is broken because the DM can always house rule it! Why should the DM have to.

Look at it when compared to other cleric abilities of that level - the only one that IMO comes close is the one from the peace domain (that allows shifting damage between party members) but that one demands a VERY tactically engaged group - this one doesn't, it's easy and passive.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I'd like recommendations for how to adjust the power level of Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary while still leaving it as a cool, useful, and flavorful ability for the Twilight Cleric.

Channel Divinity is the keystone ability for this subclass, so I don't want to nerf the power down so far that a player would not be happy with the ability anymore. But I do want to decrease it's power level to something more in-line with the games expected power level.

For reference:

Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary​

2nd-level Twilight Domain feature

You can use your Channel Divinity to refresh your allies with soothing twilight.

As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light. The sphere moves with you, and it lasts for 1 minute or until you are incapacitated or die. Whenever a creature (including you) ends its turn in the sphere, you can grant that creature one of these benefits:

  • You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d6 plus your cleric level.
  • You end one effect on it causing it to be charmed or frightened.
I would take away the advantage on initiative and the armor and weapon proficiencies first. I don't think those things fit the subclass theme and just seem to be random power ups. I would take these first to weaken the build because the CD actually fits the theme.

The 300ft darkvision is pretty OP on what is already a powerful class but at least it is thematic. Giving it to other people is again an added power up on what is already an overtuned class and probably could be disposed of.

Which gets us to twilight sanctuary. If you want to nerf that specifically here is what I would recommend in order:

1. Have temp hps last only as long as the sanctuary lasts. Not the rest of the day.
2. Make the cleric use a reaction to lift a charmed or frightened condition

If you did that I think it would be fine, but as I said I would take away other things first.
 

Drop the temp hp whole-cloth and replace it with something that makes more sense for the concept of twilight.

Keep the ability to remove the frightened or charm condition, but as a reaction you can obscure an ally from an attack targeting it, give the attack roll disadvantage. At higher levels, you can give an ally advantage on a save as a reaction. This is a less powerful version of what the rune knight gets at 7th level, but with the added charm and fear benefit.
 

Teemu

Adventurer
One option would be to tie the temp hp and the condition removal to spells. So for example, the channel divinity grants the temp hp and/or removes charmed or frightened when the cleric casts a spell on themselves or on an ally within the aura. Or maybe it needs to be a spell that restores hit points.
 

One option would be to tie the temp hp and the condition removal to spells. So for example, the channel divinity grants the temp hp and/or removes charmed or frightened when the cleric casts a spell on themselves or on an ally within the aura. Or maybe it needs to be a spell that restores hit points.
This isn't bad and you could just stipulate that it requires that you expend a slot for it to work so that you're not stuck healing but it takes up resources each time you use it.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The DM has infinite Dragons - of course he can whip up something to challenge the PC and the party.
But that just proves the point - if the DM is consistently "whipping up" something to challenge a specific ability - that shows the ability is overpowered. Said another way: Just because the DM can fix it/rule 0 it/challenge it - does not mean the ability is OK!

That's like saying no ability is broken because the DM can always house rule it! Why should the DM have to.

Look at it when compared to other cleric abilities of that level - the only one that IMO comes close is the one from the peace domain (that allows shifting damage between party members) but that one demands a VERY tactically engaged group - this one doesn't, it's easy and passive.
I understand completely what you are saying here and can get behind the idea of wanting to fix this one particular instance (especially because fixing this feature is pretty easy all things considered)... but at the same time the other way to look at this is from the macro perspective-- that every single other aspect of the game is going to require the DM to "fix" things, so bothering to focus on just this one thing can be thought of as missing the forest through the trees.

I mean, just adding a fifth character to an adventuring party now "underpowers" every single monster in the MM, because they were all designed to be balanced against a party of four. Which means the DM is now going to have to "whip up" a counter-balance to challenge them. The monsters also aren't balanced against the party having magic items (especially quite a few magic items)... which means again as soon as the party starts getting them, the monsters are now "underpowered" and the DM is going to have to work to re-balance encounters and such. Now you combine more than four PCs and they all have magic items... the DM's work is now increased even further. Then you throw in class synergies, optional rules added like feats, any other house rules the table might use... pretty soon there's not a single thing in the game the DM can just use as-is. They are having to eyeball and guesstimate fixes and balances across the entire board all the time throughout the life of the campaign.

When we look at it through that lens... the lens that says that every single thing the PCs have over and above what the baseline was designed against (which I've always believed to be just four characters taken directly from the Basic Rules-- one Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard)... the DM is ever and always going to be re-balancing the game all the time for dozens, if not hundreds of different things. Which is fine... it's the job the DM signed up for... but it does mean that just adding in one more thing to account for in the balancing-- dealing with the few extra HP characters get from the Twilight Cleric's ability-- overall is not a big deal at all. The DM just works around it the same way and at the exact same time they are working around everything else.

Long story short (too late!)... fixing a quick and easy rule is fine, and you might as well do it. But its also good to see if any job isn't ultimately necessary to fix if its problems are going to be smoothed over during the normal work of the DM's rebalancing anyway. Because at least then you have less "fixes" to have to keep remembering you've made.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I understand completely what you are saying here and can get behind the idea of wanting to fix this one particular instance (especially because fixing this feature is pretty easy all things considered)... but at the same time the other way to look at this is from the macro perspective-- that every single other aspect of the game is going to require the DM to "fix" things, so bothering to focus on just this one thing can be thought of as missing the forest through the trees.

I mean, just adding a fifth character to an adventuring party now "underpowers" every single monster in the MM, because they were all designed to be balanced against a party of four. Which means the DM is now going to have to "whip up" a counter-balance to challenge them. The monsters also aren't balanced against the party having magic items (especially quite a few magic items)... which means again as soon as the party starts getting them, the monsters are now "underpowered" and the DM is going to have to work to re-balance encounters and such. Now you combine more than four PCs and they all have magic items... the DM's work is now increased even further. Then you throw in class synergies, optional rules added like feats, any other house rules the table might use... pretty soon there's not a single thing in the game the DM can just use as-is. They are having to eyeball and guesstimate fixes and balances across the entire board all the time throughout the life of the campaign.

When we look at it through that lens... the lens that says that every single thing the PCs have over and above what the baseline was designed against (which I've always believed to be just four characters taken directly from the Basic Rules-- one Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard)... the DM is ever and always going to be re-balancing the game all the time for dozens, if not hundreds of different things. Which is fine... it's the job the DM signed up for... but it does mean that just adding in one more thing to account for in the balancing-- dealing with the few extra HP characters get from the Twilight Cleric's ability-- overall is not a big deal at all. The DM just works around it the same way and at the exact same time they are working around everything else.

Long story short (too late!)... fixing a quick and easy rule is fine, and you might as well do it. But its also good to see if any job isn't ultimately necessary to fix if its problems are going to be smoothed over during the normal work of the DM's rebalancing anyway. Because at least then you have less "fixes" to have to keep remembering you've made.

That's not exactly what I meant.

My point was: saying "it's not overpowered because the DM can fix it..." is a meaningless and unhelpful statement as the DM CAN fix anything.

You can't really use THAT as any sort of metric re: power level.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
That's not exactly what I meant.

My point was: saying "it's not overpowered because the DM can fix it..." is a meaningless and unhelpful statement as the DM CAN fix anything.

You can't really use THAT as any sort of metric re: power level.
That I can get behind. Especially considering one DM's "underpowered" is another DM's "powered", and one DM's "this ability works fine" is another's "this ability destroys the game!" There's not a lot of point in making "universal" statements because as you say, they are ultimately meaningless and not universal at all.
 

My biggest objection with the ability is the d6. I love rolling dice, but rolling an extra one for each player each round gets tedious, especially when, if it were a fixed amount, there would be no need to comment on the matter at all unless they had taken damage in the round. As is the ability incentivizes giving them the temp hp even when they already have it in the hopes of rolling higher. This is especially obnoxious since, as written, the d6 eventually becomes a secondary part of the temp HP bestowing capacity of this thing, and yet it remains the fiddly bit that sucks time.

It's also just too much temp HP at high levels, though this bothers me less because I don't anticipate playing at such levels.

I'd make it Wisdom mod+Proficiency mod temp HP.

I also think the 30 foot radius seems more in line with this being a backline cantrips cleric rather than a frontline heavy armor and melee cleric in the thick of where teammates are taking damage. I'd bring it more in line with Paladin auras and make it a 10 foot radius that changed to 30 when they hit some high level.
 




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