Fixing the Half Orc ('cause they're broken)

Thia Halmades · Oct 12, 2005

Argh. First: No flame intended, Nyaricus. Sorry if it came off that way, my way of expressing that the thread had gone off topic and we were no longer discussing possible fixes to the racial package, but had spun off into something else entirely, which was an excellent discussion, to be honest, but not the nature of the post. What I get for typing while frustrated.

Anyone who thought I was snarky: That was me. My bad. [Moo, moo moo].

On topic: One of the core discussion which have arisen from this discussion are whether the +1/-1 variant works; I fall on the side that it doesn't. With the question "when you roll stats you get something for nothing" I almost agree with that, except I'm the guy who nerfs stat rolls to balance them out without completely removing the individuality. I'm also leaning more and more towards a build system rather than a roll system, so that +2/-2 becomes that much more critical.

Originally Posted by

Felix

Click to expand...

They work just fine.

They just arn't optimal.

Ah, see, that's the big part I disagree with. IMO they just don't work; they aren't mathematically viable compared to any other race (including the surprisingly beefy human, with its extra feat & skills. Darkvision, shmarkvision, gimme the feat). I'm content with the last version I posted, which was +2 STR, -2 INT, Scent Feat option at 1st level, STR to be used in place of CHA for Intimidate checks (whichever is higher) and the Endurance feat for free at 1st. I also really liked the limitations on their CHA based checks without gimping their CHA straight out, I thought that was excellent.

Thoughts?

LCpt. Thia Halmades

Nyaricus · Oct 12, 2005

Thia Halmades said:
Argh. First: No flame intended, Nyaricus. Sorry if it came off that way, my way of expressing that the thread had gone off topic and we were no longer discussing possible fixes to the racial package, but had spun off into something else entirely, which was an excellent discussion, to be honest, but not the nature of the post. What I get for typing while frustrated.

That's okay, i am equally frustrated with the way ths post has gotten basically off topic. As said before, we should all just agree to disagree, and go with even-numbered stat mods (-2/+2), per the core-rules standard.

For concept, i don't think We are really doing these guys justice. Lets go back to some of my original arguments:

Strength > obviously, this will be the main boon for the half-orc. +2 will suffice.
Dexterity > Nothing really to say here; half-orcs can be as clumsy or swift as either of their parents. No mods here
Constitution > I would say that half-orcs (and orcs) are a bit tougher than their human side. If it werent for the fact that dwarves deserve the bonus to Con much more than orcs, i would definitively give them a bonus. Perhaps what could be worked out is giving the half-orcs the Toughness feat for free?? Thoughts?
Intelligence > Half-orcs (and orcs) are stupid. Their idea of a battle plan is whipping themselves into a rage and charging their foes with blades drawn at full tilt. -2 Int makes sense.
Wisdom > Half-orcs have an average (by human standards) of common sense. No penalties or bonuses here.
Charisma > I personally would say that -2 would make complete sense. Intimidate is basicalyl the only cha-based skill check that half-orcs (a standard one, anyways) would be using, and with the orcs special ability to use his sheer physical stature to quell the weak-willed, this will even out. Half-orcs and orcs also are not usually Clerics (for turning/rebuking) or Sorcerers (for spellcasting), so this won't affect them there. But i know there are many here who would say "don't nerf the half-orcs spellcasting completely." So, using an idea which a few have proposed (and i actually made up IMC before knowing that others used it here) we should penalize the half-orc in that All charisma-based skill checks take a -2 penalty. This includes intimidate, but the Half-orc may substitue his str mod for his cha mod for those checks only. Thoughts??

For specifics on Half-orc special abilities, heres where i stand:

Scent: it is quite powerful. Previously, i supported the idea of using limited scent (half-range etc) instead of scent, but i (and a few others who suported this) were basically ignored. I wouldn't actaully allow it at all if it were my way. I don't think that half-orcs would be good sniffers. It doesn't fit in with any known literature I know of and/or have read. And it just seems a bit too powerful.

Endurance: its not over-powered, but just not very good for flavour. If they were a plains folk (had to run around great expases alot) or lived high in the mountains (where your lungs would have to adapt to different factors) i could see how this would work. But since Orcs and half-orcs generaly seem to be living in shallow cave systems of in the ruins of dwarven citadels, i don't think they'd be getting the "training" (as it is) for the endurance feat.

Toughness: I think this would make sense. I think a half-orc would be a lot tougher than a standard human, and the toughness could reflect this. Another alterative to this would be:

Natural Armour bonus: only +1, but this could/would also reflect the fact that half-orcs are tougher than the standard human.

Darkvision/low-light vision: I would say that low-light vision would be the most appropriate ability here, but since many would say otherwise (presumably) I say for simplicities sake we go with Darkvision.

Give them Orc and Human Blood. they are treated as either race in the case of determining racial-specific effects.

Also, give them Racial Weapon Profs. The half-orc considers the orc double-axe a martial weapon.

Strong-armed Intimidate: half-orcs use their Str mod instead of their Cha mod for Intimidate checks.

so, heres the finished product:

+2 Str, -2 Int. Half-orcs are incrediably strong, but are as dumb as dirt.

medium size

base speed is 30 feet

Darkvision 60 ft

half-orcs take a -2 penalty on all Charisma-based skill checks. However, they may opt to use their Str mod instead of their Cha mod for Intimidate checks.

Toughness or +1 Natural Armour (undecided i suppose)

Racial Weapon Profs: Half-orcs may treat Orcish double axes as martail weapons rather then Exotic.

Orc and Human Blood: a half-orc is considered both a orc and a human for affect that apply to races.

Automatic Languages: Common and Orc

Favoured Class: Barbarian

So, what do you all think??

Feldspar · Oct 13, 2005

Thia Halmades said:
I'm content with the last version I posted, which was +2 STR, -2 INT, Scent Feat option at 1st level, STR to be used in place of CHA for Intimidate checks (whichever is higher) and the Endurance feat for free at 1st. I also really liked the limitations on their CHA based checks without gimping their CHA straight out, I thought that was excellent. Thoughts?

Do full blooded Orcs have access to scent as a feat? AFAIK they don't. If neither orcs nor humans can do that, why should a half-orc? It feels a bit too arbitrary of a power boost to me.

Forgive me for tooting my own horn, but I really like my weapon affinity rule. There are precedents for giving races extra weapon proficiencies. Gaining proficiency in all martial weapons makes half-orcs a very appealing choice for certain "takes" on classes (the thug thief, the gish sorceror, the melee cleric). With proficiency in all martial weapons, the half-orc could move straight into Eldritch Knight without wasting a level on a melee class.

My take on the whole thing is that half-orcs make pretty good fighters right now - so lets make them better fighter-clerics, better fighter-thieves and better fighter-sorcs.

Acch, okay I just noticed that my actual wording of "Martial: may treat any martial weapon as if it were a simple weapon" does not technically fulfill the Eldritch Knight requirement of proficiency with all martial weapons. That's a flaw in the way I descriped the ability. The point is to be one step better than other races, but I didn't want to make it a choose one of these three. I didn't want a half-orc wizard to be able to skip proficiency in all simple weapons and go straight to proficiency in all martial weapons. Along the same lines, a half-orc rogue or cleric should be able to apply the combat training they've gained (proficiency in all simple weapons) to martial weapons, not just pick up an exotic weapon proficiency (specialized training) in spike chain or something.

Okay, hows this for a rewrite of that ability:
• Weapon Affinity: Combining the natural aggressiveness and combative nature of orcs with humankind’s adaptability and quick learning has produced a race which takes to weapon play like no other:

• Half-orcs are considered to be proficient in all simple weapons
• A half-orc who gains proficiency in all simple weapons as a class ability is considered to be proficient in all martial weapons
• a half-orc who gains proficiency in all martial weapons as a class ability gains a bonus Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat of their choice

Feldspar · Oct 13, 2005

Nyaricus said:
I don't think that half-orcs would be good sniffers. It doesn't fit in with any known literature I know of and/or have read.

Rats - I need to type faster - you beat me to the punch on this one!

Nyaricus said:
Also, give them Racial Weapon Profs. The half-orc considers the orc double-axe a martial weapon.

I considered this, but rejected it for the main reason that we have to consider that a large number of half-orcs (I'd argue the majority) are not raised by orcs - but by humans or some other civilized race. I think its safe to assume that a Dwarven fighter was raised and trained by other Dwarves - that's why they were taught how to use traditional dwarven weapons like the waraxe and urgosh. But who in a human settlement is teaching the half-orc the ways of the double axe?

Problem number two is that by making it a martial weapon you limit the benefit to half-orcs who have levels in classes that give proficiency all martial weapons. But those half-orcs are already doing pretty well with their strength boost. Half-orcs may be pigeon holed as good only if you want to bash things over the head, but I support a change that makes that hole a little wider by bringing some benefits to a few more classes.

I looked at the Elf model where they get proficiency (rather than treat as martial) but again there didn't seem to be a set of weapons that really made sense.

That's why I went for the option described in my other posts. Half-orcs get more proficiency in weapons not because they were trained in some specific ones as part of their upbringing in a specific culture. Instead the natural adaptability of humans (bonus feat) meats the rage and blood lust that is inherent in orc kind and the result is a race that is naturally better and more comfortable with weapons than any other.

Felix · Oct 13, 2005

Thia Halmades said:
they aren't mathematically viable compared to any other race

They are better fighters than any other race. That's their niche. No, they can't do a range of things well, but they can fight. And I think that's what the designers were going for.

Agback said:
degree in economics

Yeah, Time Value of Money was the Accounting terminology.

----

As for the proposed changes to the Half-orc, I should have known better than to get in a House Rules discussion when I'm generally of the opinion that half-orcs, while not an optimal race, excel all other races in the hand-to-hand arena, and don't otherwise need much help.

So I'll just be on my way.

Good luck at finding satisfaction.

Nyaricus · Oct 13, 2005

Feldspar said:
I looked at the Elf model where they get proficiency (rather than treat as martial) but again there didn't seem to be a set of weapons that really made sense.

That's why I went for the option described in my other posts. Half-orcs get more proficiency in weapons not because they were trained in some specific ones as part of their upbringing in a specific culture. Instead the natural adaptability of humans (bonus feat) meats the rage and blood lust that is inherent in orc kind and the result is a race that is naturally better and more comfortable with weapons than any other.

IMO, giving the orcs LOTS of bonus profs, via your Weapon Affinity is a bit too much.

Look at favoured weapons that orcs use (a few examples here)

LOTR > Orcish Scimitars
FRCS (and i am assuming Greyhawk, but i dunno much about GH) > standard orcs use Greataxes (per the MM and through many examples)
FRCS (and GH) > Gruumsh's favoured weapon is the spear

as you can see, there are alot of conflicting weapons you couls potentially stick orcs with. Probably the one which (given the orc double axe) you couls give them auto-prof in would be Greataxe, Battleaxe, Handaxe and Throwing Axe (I believe someone already had this idea for their orcs, although i am not sure in which of the 3 threads on fixing half-orcs these would be in. Between this and the Orcish double axe for power, I'd go with this; for flavour, the Orcish double axe, but read on about this all . . .

Althoguh you do raise a good point with "who's gonna teach the half-orcs about orcish weapons," I think you are looking a wee bit to deeply for that. there could be a weapons master in town, which taught many tricks to the half-orc (some good training for feats and such here). He could have been raised by orcs, but didnt like their way of life and left the tribe (some nice plots in there). He could have been raised by humans beleiving he was in fatc human, but when he found out his heritage, he trained himself in the double-axe, this all happening before character creation and thus explains the free bonus prof. Etc etc. The fact it, that its fair and balanced and gives the orc enough flavour.

While you Weapon Affinity of the bonus Axe profs would work, i thin the axes would be too powerful by a bit and the affinity by far. Just my opinion, but the Eldritch Knight should have A Warrior and a Arcanist for its prereqs > in stating that your half-orc build is superior to other ones you also give its greatest flaw away.

Feldspar · Oct 13, 2005

Nyaricus said:
there could be a weapons master in town, which taught many tricks to the half-orc (some good training for feats and such here). He could have been raised by orcs, but didnt like their way of life and left the tribe (some nice plots in there). He could have been raised by humans beleiving he was in fatc human, but when he found out his heritage, he trained himself in the double-axe, this all happening before character creation and thus explains the free bonus prof. Etc etc.

Could? The weapons master could have trained him in the traditional soldierly ways (sword and board) and, seeing how strong this pupil was becoming, gave him a bastard sword so that he could take advantage of his natural gifts. The irony of his use of a bastard sword, which he always calls a hand-a-half sword, is not lost on him and his touchiness over the issue has led to more than a few brawls. I could probably come up with a backstory to support proficiency in any weapon we choose, but that approach breaks down when applied across an entire race, especially one that has no culture of its own. I wouldn't want to try to define racial weapons for half-elfs either.

There's something important that I think you're missing: not all half-orcs accept and embrace the orcish side of their heritage. Many will reject it outright and the desire to prove "I'm not like them" could be a fundamental part of what drives the character. Use of the orcish double axe might be anathema to such a character.

Nyaricus said:
While you Weapon Affinity of the bonus Axe profs would work, i thin the axes would be too powerful by a bit and the affinity by far. Just my opinion, but the Eldritch Knight should have A Warrior and a Arcanist for its prereqs > in stating that your half-orc build is superior to other ones you also give its greatest flaw away.

I don't know if it's *that* much more powerful. Getting all those axes seems like its getting 70% of the way there: Two-handed martial weapon? Check. One handed and light martial weapons? Check. Martial throwing weapon? Check.

One of the things I love about 3.x is the fact that weapons within a given class have parity - a longsword and battleaxe are pretty much even. If this was 1st or 2nd ed, that wouldn't be the case, Longswords, with a d12 versus large creatures, were demonstrably better. So, how much does someone lose by getting locked into a specific weapon?

The question of whether Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec are worth it comes up all the time. I think conventional wisdom among optimizers is no - but I think a lot of that comes from the opportunity cost of burning those feats (not to mention *gasp* taking more than 2 levels of fighter, what a waste!

). Usually, those builds are all about getting the feats needed to get into some PRC chain as fast as possible.

So the main differences seem to be in getting more bang for the buck from found treasure (which could be negated if DM tailors treasure to party instead of going random) and the fact that weapon parity is not equivalence which is an issue when the weapon has special properties. In other words, having to use a Greataxe instead of a Greatsword isn't a big deal, but if you really wanted to use a Guisarme ...

As for the Eldritch Knight thing, in truth a Sorc 10 / EK 10 build would be terrible, you'd enter Epic Levels with a BAB of 15. Anyway, I'm personally okay with the idea that with specific builds, a certain race might clearly be better than the others. Favored Class already has that effect. And how many cleric-archer builds rely on the Elf, if only for the bonus to dex and free proficiency with a bow.

In the end, though, even if my approach is overpowered mechanically, I'd still go with it. My goal is not just to offer more incentives, but to put also to put a different spin on the race to make it more appealing to players. Half-orc + axes? Meh. Half-orc as a born weapon master, melee prodigies one and all? Hmmm ... intriguing.

At least, to me it is. But like everything else I've said in this thread, its merely my opinion. I'm just throwing it out there in the hopes that it useful for someone.