Flanking with yourself

[Goldmoon]

Would this also work with a whip or whip dagger? If so, couldnt you use TWF and use a rapier and a whip? Flank with the whip and SA with the rapier (If youre a rogue)

 

[Infiniti2000]

It depends whether or not you are considered 'a character or creature friendly to you'

Interestingly, the definition of ally says yes.

ally
A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.

 

[Aaron L]

I'm flanking with myself right now, IYKWIMAITYD

Sorry, I dont think hong will see this thread, and it really needed to be said

 

[Mistwell]

That's been argued in here before

You threaten a square into which you can make a melee attack. If it's not your turn, and you can't make an AoO, can you make a melee attack into any square?

-Hyp.

It's in the glossary as it's own definition without mentioning AOOs:

Threaten: To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. A creature typically threatens all squares within its natural reach, even when it is not its turn to take an action. For a Medium or Small creature this usually includes all squares adjacent to its space. Large creatures threaten more squares, while smaller creatures may not threaten any squares except their own.

This stuff is repeated (more or less) in the DMG under larger creatures.

Notice, no mention of Attacks of Opportunity.

There is no actual rule that says you do not threaten a square if you cannot make an attack of opportunity into it. Your entire argument comes down to the fact that there is a rule that has non-AOO implications under the broader title of AOOs, which alone was incredibly weak to begin with. I am betting I could find many rules that happen to be under a broader subject title at the top of the page but which have an application even if it's not about that particular broader title. For example, things in the "Player's Handbook" have implications for Non Player Characters and the DM, things in the Races section have implications for skills, things under the Exploration title have implications even for characters even if they are not "exploring", and that's all just from some random flipping of pages. Most sections have rules that are not necessarily always related to the title of the section. In general, section titles are a useful organization tool, but not meant to be binding on everything under that sections.

You know, I know, and everyone knows that you can threaten a square even if you could not make an AOO into that square because of soft cover. Why don't we put an end to this sophistry. If you think this should be house rules - I agree with you, and just wanted opinions on the RAW. But if you think there is a legitemate arguement on why this doesn't work, let's actually hear it.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't see how AOOs are relevant.

WXYZ

W=PC with chain, X=NPC, Y=NPC, Z=PC

The question is, does W flank with Z against Y?

By the way, I am still waiting for a response on this, as it answers the soft cover issue. On W's turn, does he get a flanking bonus from Z if he attacks Y with his spiked chain?

 

[Sejs]

Why do I hear Billy Idol in the background when I read the subject line of this thread?

"If I had the chance
I'd ask the world to dance
and I'd be flankin' with myself...."

Heh, believe me, you're not the only one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's in the glossary as it's own definition without mentioning AOOs:

Notice, no mention of Attacks of Opportunity.

There is no actual rule that says you do not threaten a square if you cannot make an attack of opportunity into it.

But there is a rule that says you do not threaten a square if you cannot make a melee attack into it.

It says you typically threaten a square even when it is not your turn. Certainly - typically, you can make a melee attack into it, even when it is not your turn, if someone provokes an AoO. But if you have no AoOs available, and it is not your turn, there's no way to make a melee attack into that square. Is that, perhaps, the atypical situation to which they refer?

If we rule that a character who cannot make an AoO threatens a square when it is not his turn, does he still threaten a square when he is Dazed or (assuming IUS, natural weapons, etc) Stunned?

On W's turn, does he get a flanking bonus from Z if he attacks Y with his spiked chain?

W certainly gets a flanking bonus from Z if he attacks Y with his spiked chain. There is no requirement for W to threaten Y in order to gain the flanking bonus.

The relevant question, however, is "Does Z get a flanking bonus from W if he attacks Y?"

The answer is "If W threatens Y". If W does not threaten Y, Z gets no flanking bonus. If W threatens Y, Z gets a flanking bonus.

Would this also work with a whip or whip dagger?

No. The whip explicitly does not threaten.

-Hyp.

 

[Goldmoon]

Any other reach weapon that does that also threatens at five feet and 10 feet?

 

[ElectricDragon]

According to the PHB errata:

Soft Cover
Player's Handbook, page 151
Player's Handbook v.3.5 Errata 02/17/2006
©2006 Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved.
Soft cover works against ranged attacks, not melee attacks.
In the first sentence of the paragraph, change “melee” to “ranged.”

This is the ammended and affected section:

Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

The melee-chain-wielding character still gains AoO versus that creature with soft cover because soft cover does not apply to melee attacks.

Ciao
Dave

P.S. Is an Attack of Opportunity an action? If not then stunned and dazed would have no effect on threatened areas. If so, then those conditions would also prevent AoO and thus the only way they could actually threaten.

 

[shilsen]

The melee-chain-wielding character still gains AoO versus that creature with soft cover because soft cover does not apply to melee attacks.

Note, however, the top sentence on pg.151 in the PHB: "When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks." So soft cover doesn't apply to melee weapons normally but does sometimes apply to reach weapons.