Flanking with yourself

[ElectricDragon]

Ack, missed that!

Ciao
Dave

 

[Mistwell]

But there is a rule that says you do not threaten a square if you cannot make a melee attack into it.

It says you typically threaten a square even when it is not your turn. Certainly - typically, you can make a melee attack into it, even when it is not your turn, if someone provokes an AoO. But if you have no AoOs available, and it is not your turn, there's no way to make a melee attack into that square. Is that, perhaps, the atypical situation to which they refer?

If we rule that a character who cannot make an AoO threatens a square when it is not his turn, does he still threaten a square when he is Dazed or (assuming IUS, natural weapons, etc) Stunned?

For this question, it's all irrelevant.

The question is, can you flank with yourself ON YOUR TURN. The only relevant part of the definition is "To be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space." You can attack in melee without moving from your square during your turn, so during your turn you threaten.

AOOs, stuns, dazed, all of that is just a distraction as it is stuff that does not happen on your turn or which has no effect on whether or not you can use this tactic for your own benefit on your own turn.

As to the actual topic, the answer seems to be yes, you can flank with yourself on your own turn for your own benefit using this combination of feats and the spiked chain. If you have something that disputes that, let's hear it (without all the sophistry).

 

[PallidPatience]

As per RAW, it seems that that build is quite capable of sneak-attacking constantly by itself...

edit: It would be wise to keep in mind, however, that one could only flank a creature of one's own size or smaller (and not even one's on size, depending on how large you are and what reach you have).

 

[Jhulae]

Any other reach weapon that does that also threatens at five feet and 10 feet?

Duom

 

[shilsen]

Dwom

I think you mean duom. Or is this another weapon?

 

[Stalker0]

Note, however, the top sentence on pg.151 in the PHB: "When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks." So soft cover doesn't apply to melee weapons normally but does sometimes apply to reach weapons.

You must threaten an opponent in order to make AOOs. However, your ability to make AOOs does not necessarily determine your ability to threaten. While soft cover can stop you from making AOOs, you still threaten the target. Flanking does not require the ability to make AOOs, just threatened squares...so I think it would work in this case.

Now the specifics of flanking say you have to flank with a "character or creature friendly to you." I think the targetting argument can come into play here. For example, Spell Immunity has a target of "creature touched." Of course, you yourself count as a creature touched if you wish to.

So in the flanking case I believe you yourself can count as a "creature friendly to you" and therefore you can flank with yourself under these conditions.

 

[Jhulae]

I think you mean duom. Or is this another weapon?

Hm? What? My post says Duom. Look at it and see for yourself. See? D u o m.

What?

And, by the by, it's in the Arms and Equipment guide (originally 3.0) and was updated in the Dragon Compendium Volume 1, for those who weren't aware of the weapon.

 

[Goolpsy]

Well..
i only see one semi problem... If you want to hit a nearby target (5 feet), at that moment you can't be "threatening" 10 feet away... you either use the chain one way or the other... You would get attack of opportunity if someone does something within the threatned area... but in a logical content.. you can't just hit 2 people at the same time with 1 weapon at different squares.
So in theory he doesn't Flank at the time of his attack... only before and afterwards...

In another case... "being friendly with oneself" is a posibility... you just have to suffer from a multiple personality disorder... and well.. they have to be friends

 

[Stormrunner]

In SCA sword-and-board combat there's a thing called a "wrap strike", where you deliberately strike past the opponent's helm/shield, then whack them in the back of the head/upper shield-arm on the return pull. It's a weaker blow, but it can take an opponent by surprise. If this is a viable tactic in RL, seems to me that you should be able to do something similar with a whip or weighted chain.
Although one could argue that it would be better, rules-wise, to fold this sort of "deceptive strike" into the existing "Bluff to deny Dex bonus" rules.

 

[Mistwell]

Well..
i only see one semi problem... If you want to hit a nearby target (5 feet), at that moment you can't be "threatening" 10 feet away... you either use the chain one way or the other... You would get attack of opportunity if someone does something within the threatned area... but in a logical content.. you can't just hit 2 people at the same time with 1 weapon at different squares.
So in theory he doesn't Flank at the time of his attack... only before and afterwards...

Well first, that's how ALL flanking works though. By definition, there are two people only one of which is attacking a square at that moment. In fact, I'd venture to guess that an awful lot of flanking happens between two people one of which has no intention of ever attacking the square in question.

Second, if there is an NPC to your left and right, and another PC next to each of those NPCs in a straight line, you being in the center are still threatening both the NPCs to either side of you for purposes of flanking even when actually attacking just one of them. That tends to happen about once a game for us actuall (it would like like this PNPNP with P = PC and N = NPC).

Third, you could actually hit both targets. All you need is multiple attacks. You are eligible to attack both targets with the same full action (or even a standard action with certain feats and abilities). There are no rules that you need to re-adjust the chain or anything between switching from 5' attacks to 10' attacks.

"Threaten" is just that you COULD attack the square, not that you are currently doing so. And with the chain, you COULD attack either square. And with the feat, you count as if you are in both places at once for purposed of flanking.

I really think by RAW this works. I wouldn't do it as I said, but I think some might like this tactic.