Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
When does it apply?
-Hyp.
Flatfooted AC and Dex Penalty
- Thread starter Hypersmurf
- Start date
When does it apply?
-Hyp.
Page 8 is just the general rule of thumb, and should not be used to override more specific rules in other parts of the PHB.
Also, an object can't move at all, so it should be prett clear that it can't react to anything. Yet, it's Dex penalty of -5 is still applied to it's armor class. (See the PHB, page 135, Object Armor Classes and Bonuses to Attack.)
Also see PHB, page 119, Dexterity Modifier where it specifically states that you normally apply your Dex Modifier, but that there are situations where you Dex Bonus may not be applied. You don't lose a Dex Penalty, but you can lose a Dex bonus.
Given all of that, I'm pretty sure that the text on page 8 that states "provided the character can react to the attack." is referring specifically to the Dex Bonus and not the Dex Penalty, and merely worded improperly.
Also, an object can't move at all, so it should be prett clear that it can't react to anything. Yet, it's Dex penalty of -5 is still applied to it's armor class. (See the PHB, page 135, Object Armor Classes and Bonuses to Attack.)
Also see PHB, page 119, Dexterity Modifier where it specifically states that you normally apply your Dex Modifier, but that there are situations where you Dex Bonus may not be applied. You don't lose a Dex Penalty, but you can lose a Dex bonus.
Given all of that, I'm pretty sure that the text on page 8 that states "provided the character can react to the attack." is referring specifically to the Dex Bonus and not the Dex Penalty, and merely worded improperly.
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Malin Genie
First Post
While I realise this is not the question this thread is addressing, why on earth is it that a Dex 10 character is less likely to be hit by an attack that he is completely unaware of than a Dex 6 character?
Deadguy
First Post
Flat-footed Definition
I think it's important here to remember what 'flat-footed' is in terms how it's visualised in the game. As has been clarified both by the Sage and the designers, flat-footed does not mean rooted to the spot, doing nothing; that is the helpless state. The character is responding to events as best he can. But he's hampered by not uhaving got up to speed with the events affecting him, so he can't react properly (at least as I picture it, YMMV).
Hence the low Dexterity character is still hampered even further than his average or better colleagues because he's still got lousy reflexes, or he's stumble-footed, or just plain clumsy, depending on how you want to picture that low Dexterity attribute.
Certainly, that makes sense to me.
Malin Genie said:
I think it's important here to remember what 'flat-footed' is in terms how it's visualised in the game. As has been clarified both by the Sage and the designers, flat-footed does not mean rooted to the spot, doing nothing; that is the helpless state. The character is responding to events as best he can. But he's hampered by not uhaving got up to speed with the events affecting him, so he can't react properly (at least as I picture it, YMMV).
Hence the low Dexterity character is still hampered even further than his average or better colleagues because he's still got lousy reflexes, or he's stumble-footed, or just plain clumsy, depending on how you want to picture that low Dexterity attribute.
Certainly, that makes sense to me.
Cl1mh4224rd
First Post
oh my ****ing god... there's three pages of discussion on this topic? how many people on this thread actually graduated from high school?
you apply your dex modifier (positive or negative) to your ac...
being flatfooted only removes your dex bonus.
bonus = positive
penalty = negative
positive != negative
what's so difficult about differentiating "modifier" and "bonus". in some cases your modifier may in fact be a bonus, but that does not make the two words equivalent in all circumstances! the rules are in no way unclear or contradictory when it comes to this part.
now, the line quoted from page 8 is a bit weird, but i'm sure most people will agree that being 'helpless' is the only real time a character can't "react to an attack." like deadguy said, being flatfooted doesn't mean you can't react to the attack. it just means you're not up to speed with everything that just happened.
you apply your dex modifier (positive or negative) to your ac...
being flatfooted only removes your dex bonus.
bonus = positive
penalty = negative
positive != negative
what's so difficult about differentiating "modifier" and "bonus". in some cases your modifier may in fact be a bonus, but that does not make the two words equivalent in all circumstances! the rules are in no way unclear or contradictory when it comes to this part.
now, the line quoted from page 8 is a bit weird, but i'm sure most people will agree that being 'helpless' is the only real time a character can't "react to an attack." like deadguy said, being flatfooted doesn't mean you can't react to the attack. it just means you're not up to speed with everything that just happened.
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Because the assumption appears to be that, despite the fact that he is completely unaware of the attack, he can still react to it.
If someone is sitting down, watching a very loud opera, and not moving, but in no way restrained, they are not considered helpless.
If the invisible attacker with a Move Silently bonus of +45 sneaks up behind him with a dagger, then he is denied his Dex bonus to AC - fair enough. The attacker gets a +2 invisibility bonus to the attack. Fair enough.
But - can he react to the attack?
Is there a state between flat-footed and helpless - unable to react?
-Hyp.
Deadguy
First Post
The answer, Hypersmurf, is I don't think so 
Whilst there are many character states, there's nothing that represents the state that you refer to in your example. I guess a DM could decide to impose a Circumstance bonus to any action the Thief wishes to take, but that would be a DM call.
I think the reason is that this game is modelling an heroic setting. Unless characters are absolutely helpless (unconscious, or bound, or held), they are given the opportunity to act. They can be caught flat-footed, but as I have tried to describe, this still leaves them the chance to do something to protect themselves. A grittier setting might want to re-examine this.
Whilst there are many character states, there's nothing that represents the state that you refer to in your example. I guess a DM could decide to impose a Circumstance bonus to any action the Thief wishes to take, but that would be a DM call.
I think the reason is that this game is modelling an heroic setting. Unless characters are absolutely helpless (unconscious, or bound, or held), they are given the opportunity to act. They can be caught flat-footed, but as I have tried to describe, this still leaves them the chance to do something to protect themselves. A grittier setting might want to re-examine this.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
The answer, Hypersmurf, is I don't think so
Which is why the page 8 reference is confusing - it refers to a condition that never occurs.
-Hyp.
Deadguy
First Post
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, Hypersmurf. What situation nver occurs? There are circumstances where the PC cannot react (see above). It just comes back to the reference to Dexterity modifier being overly abbreviated (it is, after all, essentially a quick overview of what the Attribute does). It ought to mention flat-footedness and helplessness and how these are handled differently. But I think they are deliberately left until their appropriate sections, so as to avoid overwhelming the reader who is simply aiming to get an idea of what Attributes to buy or assign.Hypersmurf said:
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
When a character is helpless, the Dexterity modifier specifically does apply : -5 for effective Dex of zero.
When a character is flat-footed, the consensus (and apparently rulings from designers) is that only a bonus is negated.
In neither of these cases does the modifier (as a general term) fail to apply. Helpless is a state more severe than simply "cannot react", and flat-footed less so.
Unless circumstances exist where neither helpless nor flat-footed apply, yet the character still "cannot react", then the page 8 reference is not simply "overly abbreviated", it is wrong.
-Hyp.
