Flurry of Blows to initiate a Grapple?

[mvincent]

And since the FAQ explicitly notes that a flurrying monk can grapple, we must conclude that you can indeed grapple with an unarmed strike.

In context, I do not believe that that is what the FAQ was trying to address at all: i.e. it appears to be an unintended, oblique reference, and the core rules would actually have primacy anyways.

However, if you consider the matter open to interpretation (even with the knowledge of how the rules differenciate unarmed strikes and unarmed attacks), then you could certainly use the FAQ to support a decision to allow it. Indeed I encourage doing so.

However, the statement "we must conclude that you can indeed grapple with an unarmed strike" certainly does not seem like a truism.

 

[Legildur]

I'm honestly not trying to derail the thread here, but the FAQ response also includes a reference to Sunder, which, according to the tables in the PHB, can only be performed as a Standard Action, so cannot be part of a FoB. Similarly, I don't believe that a grapple can be initiated during a FoB (because of the unarmed strike v unarmed attack difference).

 

[Vegepygmy]

I'm honestly not trying to derail the thread here, but the FAQ response also includes a reference to Sunder, which, according to the tables in the PHB, can only be performed as a Standard Action, so cannot be part of a FoB.

While the FAQ has certainly contradicted itself before, this is not one of those times.

Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack?

Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive text for the Manyshot feat says).

If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once, or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking and sundering.

Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder feat).

You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity).

 

[Vegepygmy]

In context, I do not believe that that is what the FAQ was trying to address at all: i.e. it appears to be an unintended, oblique reference,

Well, I don't know about that. It's a direct answer to a direct question. You can't get much more un-oblique than that.

and the core rules would actually have primacy anyways.

But the core rules are silent on the issue.

However, the statement "we must conclude that you can indeed grapple with an unarmed strike" certainly does not seem like a truism.

I know. I was just yanking Hyp's chain.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm in 100% agreement with the FAQ here.

WotC is notoriously inconsistent in their use of language...so don't get hung up on the Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Attack dichotomy. IMHO, it is a false one.

In the monk description, they talk about the monk's unarmed strike & its use in FoB on pages 40-41 of the PHB.

However, also on p 41 of the PHB, the monk is repeatedly referred to as having unarmed attacks:

Ki Strike (SU)

At 4th level, a monk's unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. (see Damage Reduction, page 291 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also tredated as lawful weapon for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealin damage to creatures with damage recuction and bypassing hardness (see Smashing an Object, page 165).

(emphasis mine)

Additionally, unarmed strikes (which, regardless of inconsistencies, Monks do have, and they are clearly "monk weapons" as well or they could not be used in FoB) are explicitly listed as weapons on the chart, so there's no reason to exclude them from the FAQ's list.

So.

Unless you rule that Ki Strikes cannot be used with FoB because they apply to unarmed attacks and not unarmed strikes, there is no logical reason why grapples cannot also be used in FoB, as per the FAQ.

 

[Legildur]

While the FAQ has certainly contradicted itself before, this is not one of those times.

That FAQ response on Sunder you quoted is easier to pick apart than freshly baked bread. And there are numerous threads around on exactly that topic. So I'm not going to rehash the arguments here.

I was simply trying to demonstrate that the FAQ, while generally okay, shouldn't be viewed as 100% correct on all matters as there are some errors (and outright contradictions of the rules) contained in it. Some of the respondents in this thread obviously consider that the FAQ response about FoB/Grapple is one of those problem areas.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unless you rule that Ki Strikes cannot be used with FoB because they apply to unarmed attacks and not unarmed strikes, there is no logical reason why grapples cannot also be used in FoB, as per the FAQ.

Any attack made with an unarmed strike is an unarmed attack. However, not every unarmed attack is an attack made with an unarmed strike.

Analogy: Any attack made with a kama is an armed attack. However, not every armed attack is an attack made with a kama.

Let's say that a monk has a Ki Weapon ability, that says any attack he makes with a weapon bypasses DR X/Lawful. Swings a longsword? Beats DR X/Lawful. Does this mean he cannot use Ki Weapon in a Flurry of Blows, since it applies to 'attacks with weapons', not 'attacks with special monk weapons'? Not at all. Any attack with a weapon he makes as part of a Flurry of Blows benefits. It's just that he can't make an attack with a weapon that is not a special monk weapon as part of a Flurry of Blows.

Any unarmed attack the monk makes benefits from Ki Strike, whether it is made with an unarmed strike or not. However, in a Flurry of Blows, the only unarmed attacks the monk can make are unarmed strikes.

Is grapple an unarmed attack? Certainly; it will benefit from Ki Strike and bypass DR X/Lawful. Can it be performed as part of a Flurry of Blows? No; it is neither an attack with an unarmed strike, nor an attack with a special monk weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I agree- unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks.

Monks are highly skilled in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable advantages when doing so...A monk''s Attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full, There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed...

And:

1) The only weapons usable with Flurry of Blows are monk weapons.

2) Unarmed attacks are weapons (according to the equipment section & chart).

3) A monk's unarmed strike is a subset of unarmed attacks, and thus, a weapon.

4) A monk's unarmed strike is usable with Flurry of Blows.

5) Thus a monk's unarmed strike is technically a monk weapon.

6) Thus you can use a grapple with the FoB, according to the FAQ.

For your position to hold water, you'd have to argue that a monk can fight with his unarmed fighting skills one way and its an unarmed strike (with a monk weapon), and another way and its merely an unarmed attack (without a monk weapon)...

Or that they only unarmed strike while FoB?

That he's consciously using an attack form that is suboptimal, so he can't use all of his training?

Is grapple an unarmed attack? Certainly; it will benefit from Ki Strike and bypass DR X/Lawful. Can it be performed as part of a Flurry of Blows? No; it is neither an attack with an unarmed strike, nor an attack with a special monk weapon.

As I've shown above, the monk's unarmed attacks are a special monk weapon.

He could flurry and grab with his hands, or even initiate a leg lock.

 

[Legildur]

1) The only weapons usable with Flurry of Blows are monk weapons.....As I've shown above, the monk's unarmed attacks are a special monk weapon.

(ignoring the logic path for the moment) No you haven't. The text from the PHB states the following under Flurry of Blows (my emphasis):

When using a flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

<edit> 2000 posts!

 

[Starglim]

It makes a lot of sense as a house rule (especially for monks with certain feats), but unfortunately initiating a grapple is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon.