[Folks that like 4e] What are some things from previous editions that you miss?

[Henry]

A couple of comments:

OD&D - DM Fiat as the default rule. Simplicity.
BECMI - Immortal play (I know, I know, we've got Epic levels but not immortal).
1ed - Gygaxian flavor/idiosyncrasies. Lots of useless but interesting information (e.g. the DMG, Best RPG Book Ever).
2ed - Plethora of settings. Class creation guidelines in DMG.
3ed - OGL!!! Density of words per page. Millions of hardcovers.

DM Fiat - Personally I don't feel like I'm missing it. I used to feel like I was missing it from the latter half of 3E, but not from OD&D, AD&D, or 4e, really. For me, it brought it back.

Gygaxian flavor - I think I'll always miss that.
Plethora of Settings - give 4e a few years, and I have a feeling that won't feel missing, if they stick to their current plan.
OGL - Hell, yeah.



For MY list:

I miss the random tables of craziness from AD&D - potion miscibility, that random 1 in 1000 chance you'd roll a helm of brilliance on the magic items, or the random harlot table More seriously, it has tables of random chaos like that which gave it some of its fun flavor for me in the day, and I feel like newer generations could benefit with a little random craziness in their RPGs.

The other thing I miss most is the OGL, without a doubt. In a world where the 4E rules embraced an OGL from the get-go, you'd have the Mutants and Masterminds of 4E by now, or the beginnings of the evolution of the game rules to something even greater, faster than the current design team could carry it. I still say the greatest example of the success of the OGL was Mike Mearls.


Last thing I miss most is the ease of designing new stuff for D&D. The balance issues of the rules now make me feel as if they dictate waiting for WotC to release something, rather than doing up some homebrew myself. I have no problems from the DM side, but wanting to design my own powers or classes or feats? I just don't have that kind of time...

 

[Jack99]

This thread is for folks that like (and probably play) 4E but miss things from earlier editions. What do you miss? What was left behind? If you were to gather the best of all previous editions and add it to 4E (in order to get to the unmentionable "next edition") what would they be?

Without giving it too much thought, my list:

OD&D - DM Fiat as the default rule. Simplicity.
BECMI - Immortal play (I know, I know, we've got Epic levels but not immortal).
1ed - Gygaxian flavor/idiosyncrasies. Lots of useless but interesting information (e.g. the DMG, Best RPG Book Ever).
2ed - Plethora of settings. Class creation guidelines in DMG.
3ed - OGL!!! Density of words per page. Millions of hardcovers.

Quicker combats, greater variation between how classes work covers it for me.

The thing I miss the least is the OGL.

 

[vagabundo]

I think I miss some optional ways to play the game. I'd like an Unearthed Arcana with tones of tweaks and optional stuff that you could make one off campaigns or insert to help change play-style.


I think it is something that should come out sooon...

 

[Falstyr]

What I miss mostly is in the fluff department. I miss spell scrolls, wands of summoning, wands of healing with a few charges, spell wands with charges... but nothing that can't be made by the DM himself using 4e mechanics and fluff it up.

What I also miss are proper 4e adventure modules. Most, if not all, adventures and modules are more dungeon crawls lacking story. There is little written in the modules that can be used to flesh out the environment. That's why I still prefer using previous edition adventures for their story aspects. Re-creating monsters isn't that difficult so in no time you're basically running an older adventure in 4e environment

 

[Rechan]

I don't miss this (because it was before my time), but I like the sound of it: Keeps and followers from 2e. At a certain point, PCs just got a keep. Not only that, but they could use loot to amass armies and such. I just like that level of power amassing unrelated to the system.

One of the few things I miss: Magical Items anyone can use. The Magical Items in 4e are very specific in function. There's very few 'this item is universally useful for everyone at the table'. It means that I the DM have to go through all the items looking for what the PC would benefit from, or ask for a wish list.

I miss a long period of time free of edition wars.

 

[CapnZapp]

I miss the old warlock. He was way cooler than the new one.

What warlock? Which edition besides 4E has featured a core warlock?

What I also miss are proper 4e adventure modules. Most, if not all, adventures and modules are more dungeon crawls lacking story.

Agreed.

At least now we have all the dungeon crawls we need, so start doing some adventures with story and NPC interaction, thank you very much WotC!

One of the few things I miss: Magical Items anyone can use. The Magical Items in 4e are very specific in function. There's very few 'this item is universally useful for everyone at the table'. It means that I the DM have to go through all the items looking for what the PC would benefit from, or ask for a wish list.

Wish lists only foster players who believe they're entitled to whatever suits their build the best, and I hate the idea.

So I agree. While neck items and miscellaneous stuff can be used by almost everybody, the same can't be said about weapons, implements and armor. Chances are if the party finds a holy symbol, totem or rod there is only one party member that can even use it at all (few parties consist of cleric/warlock/shaman MCs and hybrids only). This is very sad I think.

Or rather, what is sad is that WotC haven't compensated for this by adding new kinds of generic items even though we have already seen two AVs...



Apart from this I want rituals with more oomph. Currently you have some must-haves (raise dead, linked portal, enchant item etc) that feel more like an extension of the rules than actual ritual-using; and the rest is simply stuff you dutifully collect, but which doesn't really help you out.

I want rituals like Shadowbridge. Perhaps rituals that allow you to fly, or that summons allies. An epic ritual that does what the AV2 immurements does would actually be cool, for instance.

 

[Rechan]

Wish lists only foster players who believe they're entitled to whatever suits their build the best, and I hate the idea.

I'm ok with player entitlement. I'm of the DM style that bends over backwards to accommodate players as far as what they want.

In most games I've DMed, PCs generally don't use the items they have - they don't use the powers, they don't care about their treasure. So, at least with a wishlist, it shows the person has a desire to USE the dang thing.

It just can seriously conflict with the setting. I mean, if you're coming to the New Continent to plunder its ancient ruins, you're less likely to find a Vicious Spiked Chain if they didn't, you know, use metal.

And I just dislike it where it seems like every item is placed with the foreknowledge of catoring to a player. Because as soon as you discover it, 'Oh, he uses a Khopesh because our fighter uses one, and he needs a new weapon - no wondering who gets this item!"

Aside from a few neck slot items, there's nothing that is the equivalent of "Ring of Protection". And Misc items (the ones that are less necessarily focused on specific classes/builds), are assumed by the system to be EXTRA in addition to the Armor/Weapons/NEckslot.

 

[vagabundo]

I'm ok with player entitlement. I'm of the DM style that bends over backwards to accommodate players as far as what they want.

In most games I've DMed, PCs generally don't use the items they have - they don't use the powers, they don't care about their treasure. So, at least with a wishlist, it shows the person has a desire to USE the dang thing.

I've notice this behavour in my players if they believe they cannot die. I've noticed item use - or scrapping the bottom of the barrel - happens when they are put under serious pressure. Low on surges, dailies expended, barred in a room with hoards of minions battering down the door - time to check out those item powers... The scouring through the character sheets and the pleading looks are music for my evil DM soul.

 

[Falstyr]

Rewards like awarding keeps and land can be done in 4e as well. Now that all skills are more thrown on 1 pile it has become harder to give a +2 religion check to a certain cult of the adventuring party has been through a long hard ordeal regarding that cult. Small rewards like that have been harder to give out. I miss that a little and takes extra book keeping and slight house ruling.

As for wish lists. Players will dis-enchant items they don't need and just buy what they want. Dis-enchantment will not give the full monetary equivelant of a magic item so the players could feel punished. Still I am also of the party that uses wishlists, but prefers not to blindly give the players everything they want. They don't know the adventure and encounters coming up and what could come more of use. It is the DM's final judgement to decide who gets what. The wishlists are nothing more but an advisory means...not the final list.

This also gives me the chance to introduce items they probably wouldn't have thought about and to force them to be more creative. It is a lot less dull then knowing exactely what you get and when. If you want to play in god mode then go play an FPS shooter with some cheats.

 

[Hjorimir]

I miss 1E Gygaxianisms.
I miss 1E modules.
I miss 1E/2E magic items.
I miss 2E fluff.
I miss boxed sets.
I don't miss the OGL all that much.