D&D 5E (2014) For the Record: Mearls on Warlords (ca. 2013)

[Guest 6801328]

Then it's the DM's fault for narrating such a wound in the first place. Dont describe 0Hp as anything that a few seconds with some gauze and smelling salts can't fix (healer's kit).

Seriously?

Then when is it ok to narrate a serious wound? Never?

 

[Ristamar]

Then it's the DM's fault for narrating such a wound in the first place. Dont describe 0Hp as anything that a few seconds with some gauze and smelling salts can't fix (healer's kit).

Unless you have the Healer feat, the Healer's Kit only stabilizes a dying creature. They remain at 0 hit points. Even with the feat, they only get 1 hit point upon stabilizing.

Aside from that, if not at 0 hit points, when do you suggest the DM should narrate the severity of a wound? Only after the victim is dead? Is every instance of a PC going down a case of Schrodinger's Wound?

"Hey, buddy. Ragnar. Ragnar...? Damn, he's dead. Guess that orc hit Ragnar a lot harder than we thought!"

 

[Imaro]

Then it's the DM's fault for narrating such a wound in the first place. Dont describe 0Hp as anything that a few seconds with some gauze and smelling salts can't fix (healer's kit).

Interesting... PHB pg.197 "Describing the Effects of Damage"

Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half of your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.

It seems like the advice in the PHB doesn't align with what you are stating here.

 

[Bawylie]

I think you're straying from the theme quite a bit, to something that might be tangentially related. Is it the person of the faith healer they are responding to, or their own predisposition to believe? (Personally I think you're describing Clerics.)

But more importantly, is this a trope of fiction/myth/literature/history? I fully agree that close friends using their bond to incite weary/weak/injured/dead to revive themselves is a frequently used narrative device. But without arguing about the truth or falsehood of the faith healer story, is it something that storytellers use as a powerful narrative technique? Which is what I thought we were talking about.

But all that aside, I think you've hit upon a great class name for a non-magical healer. Emphasis added:



EDIT: It's also pretty well established that real-world hypnotists (not the new base class!) can only work with people who are willing to be hypnotized. Suggesting that the subject has to actively participate.

Anecdote from me:

My ex-bro-in-law is an atheist. He's also an accomplished musician and takes paying gigs all over. Including a regular spot at a church.

One year, they did some mega-concert in Brazil. Now, he didn't know anything about it and he's not a believer. But he said the attendees came up for faith healing. He told me that he was expected to receive the faithful and to lay hands on them. Each band member did. And when my XBiL did this, to many many people (he said this went on for an hour), many of them fainted at his touch.

I'm not making any claims about the workings of God. (I'm a believer but we'll set that aside). I am saying there are some mental processes, maybe in this case it was a form of mass hysteria, that truly do produce euphoria and adrenaline and all manner of weirdness that normally wouldn't happen.

These are chemical or hormonal reactions (& I feel that they have to be bc brains).

So in this sense, only, I don't feel that "Inspiring Word" is so outside human comprehension to be automatically ruled out.

That brings us to 2 other points. Frequency & off-class use.

I immediately concede off-class use. If your adventurer has a strong bond with another adventurer or NPC, I have zero problem with one or the other of you having this dramatic scene wherein your words move someone to fight on or whatever else. (I'm reminded of Lanceleot in "Le Chevalier Mal-Fete" who despite his sins, was allowed to perform a miracle and save the life of a wounded knight and prove Guinevere's virtue, solely because he asked God to save the Knight for the Knight's sake, and the Queen if it was right that she should be saved. All this despite his betrayals, extra-marital affairs, and general failings of faith. The line goes "the true miracle was that he could perform a miracle at all."). So I'm happy to concede off class use. There's a fighter who did lay on hands. NBD.

Frequency and reliability. There's a rub. Because this is a game mechanic issue and not an in-universe issue. Like it or not, frequency is metered out in actions, short rests, and long rests. I am def open to a discussion about nailing the right frequency, but bc this is a game, it's going to have to fall on the same frequency rules everyone else plays by.

Here's my proposal. 1 per short rest grant THP to 1 ally. And maybe more allies at higher levels or more uses. (Maybe both? Idk). That's T.H.P.

Maybe have an action called triage that automatically stabilizes a fallen ally. Useable at will, adjacent required, healing kit required.

Finally one action, useable once per long rest that works much like a fighter's second wind, on an ally that can see/hear you.

I feel these are modest Healy-dealies that address issues of frequency and don't step on any actual healer's toes. I think these should be staples of any warlord (whether it gets its own class or is just a subclass). And they're reliable, but clutch. So I don't think they're any more abusable than 2nd wind.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Interesting... PHB pg.197 "Describing the Effects of Damage"

Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half of your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.

It seems like the advice in the PHB doesn't align with what you are stating here.

We must be reading different text. It very clearly says that losing the first half of your hitpoints doesn't show any wounds at all, and the second half produces nothing that couldn't be essentially healed after a quick wash with clean water and a night's rest. It's only the very last point that is allowed to be any form of meaningful wound, and even that does not have to be. And even then, by default, the game says such a supposedly "meaningful" wound is gone--so gone you can't even tell it was there--and all you have to suffer for it is being slightly more easily winded (depleting all of your HD means it takes a second rest to recover all of them).

If you prefer to play by the "gritty healing" rules, or want to introduce "real" wounding mechanics, or don't like how quickly non-magical healing works...then the Warlord is, pretty obviously, not for you, and should be labelled as such. "This class is not compatible with all rules modules, particularly those that affect healing and resting. Consult with your DM before you decide to play this class." It doesn't take more than a couple of sentences to cover that.

And beyond that? Well, I know for a goddamn fact that inspiration can help you get over being tired but not obviously injured (any amount of HP between 100% and 50%, exclusive), and that small cuts and bruises, even minor real injuries like blisters, can be ignored until you get to a safe resting place (any amount of HP from 50% down to, but not including, 0%). And given that the book explicitly says that your DM can narrate falling to 0 HP as mere unconsciousness--which I *have* been roused from by outside noise, as have all the military personnel I'm related to--it's perfectly cromulent for Warlords to be specially trained to know how, when, and most importantly why to resuscitate individuals who have been knocked unconscious.

For DMs that don't want it, give a big, fat clearance to do so. Don't even kid around. "The DM may disapprove of this class or its mechanics. It is not unconditionally approved for use in all games. It is allowed in Adventurer's League, but this may be overruled at the DM's (or whatever the term is for AL DMs) discretion."

At that point, I ask you: What have you to lose? The rules already say that 100%-50% is literally not visible, and 50%-0.001% is merely an escalation of small cuts and variably-sized bruises. You literally can't claim that the book supports treating any HP loss except that from 1 point to 0 points as physical wounding--and even that doesn't have to be. If the developers give you that special dispensation to say "No, hell no, and never darken my door again!" that you desire, what more do you need?

 

[Imaro]

We must be reading different text. It very clearly says that losing the first half of your hitpoints doesn't show any wounds at all, and the second half produces nothing that couldn't be essentially healed after a quick wash with clean water and a night's rest. It's only the very last point that is allowed to be any form of meaningful wound, and even that does not have to be. And even then, by default, the game says such a supposedly "meaningful" wound is gone--so gone you can't even tell it was there--and all you have to suffer for it is being slightly more easily winded (depleting all of your HD means it takes a second rest to recover all of them).

If you prefer to play by the "gritty healing" rules, or want to introduce "real" wounding mechanics, or don't like how quickly non-magical healing works...then the Warlord is, pretty obviously, not for you, and should be labelled as such. "This class is not compatible with all rules modules, particularly those that affect healing and resting. Consult with your DM before you decide to play this class." It doesn't take more than a couple of sentences to cover that.

And beyond that? Well, I know for a goddamn fact that inspiration can help you get over being tired but not obviously injured (any amount of HP between 100% and 50%, exclusive), and that small cuts and bruises, even minor real injuries like blisters, can be ignored until you get to a safe resting place (any amount of HP from 50% down to, but not including, 0%). And given that the book explicitly says that your DM can narrate falling to 0 HP as mere unconsciousness--which I *have* been roused from by outside noise, as have all the military personnel I'm related to--it's perfectly cromulent for Warlords to be specially trained to know how, when, and most importantly why to resuscitate individuals who have been knocked unconscious.

For DMs that don't want it, give a big, fat clearance to do so. Don't even kid around. "The DM may disapprove of this class or its mechanics. It is not unconditionally approved for use in all games. It is allowed in Adventurer's League, but this may be overruled at the DM's (or whatever the term is for AL DMs) discretion."

At that point, I ask you: What have you to lose? The rules already say that 100%-50% is literally not visible, and 50%-0.001% is merely an escalation of small cuts and variably-sized bruises. You literally can't claim that the book supports treating any HP loss except that from 1 point to 0 points as physical wounding--and even that doesn't have to be. If the developers give you that special dispensation to say "No, hell no, and never darken my door again!" that you desire, what more do you need?

Uhm... the post I responded to was about 0 hp's... correct?? I'm not even sure what the rest of your post is really addressing...

Emphasis mine... where does the game state this?

EDIT: No, I'm sorry but cuts and bruises are physical wounds there's no getting around that, regardless of how you try to trivialize it... there is a physical component to HP loss after a certain threshold.

Side Note: I find it odd that a party could be fighting a master swordsman who instead of you know cutting or slashing (damage type) is instead finding ways to continuously knock people out with his longsword...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Uhm... the post I responded to was about 0 hp's... correct?? I'm not even sure what the rest of your post is really addressing...

Emphasis mine... where does the game state this?

EDIT: No, I'm sorry but cuts and bruises are physical wounds there's no getting around that, regardless of how you try to trivialize it... there is a physical component to HP loss after a certain threshold.

What happens when a character takes a rest for the night? As I understood it, by default, they regain all of their HP. This returns them to being in better condition than the "between 50% and 100%, exclusive" state--which, as I believe we are agreed, explicitly doesn't show any signs of wounding. Thus, these "meaningful wounds" can be slept off by default.

If you choose to use alternative healing rules which preclude this state, that's your business--and also a perfectly valid reason for saying why the Warlord isn't welcome at your table. It is not a perfectly valid reason for saying why the Warlord shouldn't be welcome at all tables.

Side Note: I find it odd that a party could be fighting a master swordsman who instead of you know cutting or slashing (damage type) is instead finding ways to continuously knock people out with his longsword...

I find it odd that a party can fight a dragon and not experience incredibly painful, lingering burns even if they receive no magical healing whatsoever, such that they are not perceptibly different the next day.

I find it odd that a mid-level party can go out for a delve, see half of their hired help get massacred by vicious beasts that may not even be native to their reality, get dosed with poison arrows, doused with acid, set off an explosive trap, and fall 50 feet...then go get a good night's sleep and repeat all of it the next day.

I find it odd that a mid-level Fighter can take more "wounds" than a warhorse, and not only keep standing, but apparently not even show visible signs of wear.

I also find it odd that these impossibly durable, regenerative, mentally imperturbable, fast-clotting individuals are unable, to even the slightest degree, to gain even the slightest amount of long-term benefit from psychological effects that require training to make use of...unless it's of benefit only to themselves. You can be trained to draw on that resource yourself, but you can't be trained to get others to draw on it themselves, with your help.

 

[Imaro]

What happens when a character takes a rest for the night? As I understood it, by default, they regain all of their HP. This returns them to being in better condition than the "between 50% and 100%, exclusive" state--which, as I believe we are agreed, explicitly doesn't show any signs of wounding. Thus, these "meaningful wounds" can be slept off by default.

If you choose to use alternative healing rules which preclude this state, that's your business--and also a perfectly valid reason for saying why the Warlord isn't welcome at your table. It is not a perfectly valid reason for saying why the Warlord shouldn't be welcome at all tables.

At 0 hp's it's a little more complicated than that...

1. You must have at least 1 hit point in order to gain any benefit from a long rest... so no, at 0 hp's it doesn't help you at all.

2. Death Saving Throws are made while at 0 hp's...if you fail 3 (doesn't have to be consecutive) you die... they must be made until you are at higher than zero hit points...

EDIT: Finally I think you're getting a little confused here... that passage I was talking about was for narrating damage taken... You're trying to use it to extrapolate narration of resting after being stabilized after taking damage... if you want to do that fine but nowhere in the book does it say that.

 

[Imaro]

I find it odd that a party can fight a dragon and not experience incredibly painful, lingering burns even if they receive no magical healing whatsoever, such that they are not perceptibly different the next day.

And yet you believe those burns can be talked away... go figure.

I find it odd that a mid-level party can go out for a delve, see half of their hired help get massacred by vicious beasts that may not even be native to their reality, get dosed with poison arrows, doused with acid, set off an explosive trap, and fall 50 feet...then go get a good night's sleep and repeat all of it the next day.

Not odd at all... Conan, Elric, Aragorn, Gandalf and many other heroes of fantasy do this on a regular basis... But hey if you think it's odd for the genre, it's your game so change it.

I find it odd that a mid-level Fighter can take more "wounds" than a warhorse, and not only keep standing, but apparently not even show visible signs of wear.

Again read some Conan stories...

I also find it odd that these impossibly durable, regenerative, mentally imperturbable, fast-clotting individuals are unable, to even the slightest degree, to gain even the slightest amount of long-term benefit from psychological effects that require training to make use of...unless it's of benefit only to themselves. You can be trained to draw on that resource yourself, but you can't be trained to get others to draw on it themselves, with your help.

It's called "Rally" Battlemasters can do it for others.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

At 0 hp's it's a little more complicated than that...

1. You must have at least 1 hit point in order to gain any benefit from a long rest... so no, at 0 hp's it doesn't help you at all.

2. Death Saving Throws are made while at 0 hp's...if you fail 3 (doesn't have to be consecutive) you die... they must be made until you are at higher than zero hit points...

I was assuming that the character had succeeded on the DSTs. Since it's perfectly possible to stabilize someone even without having a feat or using magic (a DC 10 Wis(Med) check--at least one person should have a nonnegative Wis mod), and at worst you're back to 1 HP after 1d4 hours, a few hours being protected by your friends plus a long rest guarantees that you're back on your feet, full HP. How did a wound, which was so bad that you were dying of it 12 hours ago, disappear so completely that you are now back on your feet?