Forked Thread: gimme some narration

[pukunui]

I'll try to keep this short cause I'm a bit of a longwinded blow-hard.

You too, eh?

If 4e is not doing what you want it to and another game is there is no question. Play the game that meets your needs. Done.

You're absolutely right. The thing is, though, that it's not so much that I want to play SWSE over 4e as much as it is that I wish I could play 4e with classes that use talents instead of powers.

That's the crux of it really. I prefer talents over powers, and I really wish WotC had stuck with talent trees for 4e.

I guess the obvious solution would be to graft some sort of talent tree system onto 4e, but I'm not a game designer and the mere thought of trying to do it myself is rather daunting.

So I suppose if I really want to use talents instead of powers, I'm going to have to convert SWSE. In the meantime, I'm just going to wait and see what the Gneech's S&S Saga 2.0 looks like. I like what I've read of his first attempt ...

If you want more narration take the lead. Make sure all of your descriptions are oozing with atmosphere and action. I know it's not always easy when you're running the game because you have lots of plates to spin but try and be conscious of it. If you find yourself falling back into "he hits, take 12 damage, he misses, shift one square" etc. snap out of it. Don't allow yourself to contribute to the atmosphere of banality. I'm not at your table so I don't know what you say but I do know from experience that when the rest of the group is flat I don't put as much energy into it either.

I do try to take the lead. At the very least, I am always conscious of it. I often chide myself afterwards for not being as descriptive as I felt I should have been ...

The thing is, though, that I'm actually finding it harder to provide all the description/narration with 4e than I did before because:
a) there are more PCs and they're all doing more things and
b) there are more monsters.

Also, it becomes a bit difficult to think of a good description after the fifth or sixth time someone uses the same attack (how many different ways can you describe being shot with a crossbow bolt?).

There is always a feedback loop of energy in any kind of performance. A receptive and responsive audience leads to a better perform and vice versa.

Yeah. I agree.

As far as carrots are concerned I would suggest trying this: don't tell the players what you are going to do just do it. What I mean by this is that if a player does something that you think is good reward them immediately. Even if you've got to lower your standards a bit to what would be rewardable behavior. Once the ball gets rolling you can up the ante, make the narration and player controlled action incrementally more demanding until it reaches the level you are aspiring to.

Sounds good. The thing with my group, though, is that if I don't tell them, they won't think to do it themselves.

There are some articles somewhere in my bookmarks about inspiring play at your table. I'll do some poking around and post some links.

Cool. I'd love to have a read.

 

[Derro]

Here's a few links. I'm not sure if these address your problem directly but might give you some jumping off points.

Role-playing tips

GM Guide

Fighting the good fight

This tidbit from John H. Kim is just a big list of links but there is a ton of reading to be done here.

Good luck.

 

[pukunui]

Here's a few links. I'm not sure if these address your problem directly but might give you some jumping off points.

Role-playing tips

GM Guide

Fighting the good fight

This tidbit from John H. Kim is just a big list of links but there is a ton of reading to be done here.

Good luck.

Awesome! Thanks, Derro!

 

[bagger245]

When my players play 4th ed, they do the same thing and act like mmorpg/Final Fantasy PCs, but whne we play BECM or even 3.5, they will get bored of saying the
routinal attack/spell actions that they tend to add on sum spice to it ie narrate their attacks/spells. In 4th ed, they feel its hard due to the flavour text being written down and players tend to get shoehorned into percieving that power.
The whole powers in 4th ed needs getting used to. Right now, I still imagine FF7 Cloud doing his limit break or an imaginary animated-pixelated effect on the table
whenever my players does his powers.

 

[pukunui]

When my players play 4th ed, they do the same thing and act like mmorpg/Final Fantasy PCs, but whne we play BECM or even 3.5, they will get bored of saying the
routinal attack/spell actions that they tend to add on sum spice to it ie narrate their attacks/spells. In 4th ed, they feel its hard due to the flavour text being written down and players tend to get shoehorned into percieving that power.
The whole powers in 4th ed needs getting used to. Right now, I still imagine FF7 Cloud doing his limit break or an imaginary animated-pixelated effect on the table
whenever my players does his powers.

Yes, I think that many people feel like if it's written down, then changing it is somehow against the rules. I'll admit to being a little that way myself about some things, but I think my players are also kind of like that -- I get a lot of resistance whenever I try to "fiddle" with the rules.

 

[bagger245]

We try to play it RAW as possible and thats when it splits. There are ppl who just take the mechanics of 4th ed and invent their own fluff. Its good, but for a game thats just 4 months old, its like buying a new car and immediately giving it a fresh coat of paint without actually getting used to the original colour.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've been in the hobby for 30+ years, and sometimes its just plain difficult to be "in character" when things heat up.

However, I've noticed that players are less likely to break character when they're using a system that puts a premium on customization- usually point-based/modular/generic systems. IME, players who have spent time tricking out their GURPS, HERO or M&M character (to name but a few systems) seem more closely tied to their PC and staying in character, perhaps because they've spent so much time coming up with this kewl power or that rockin' trick.

As always, YMMV.

And as far as I can tell, the more experienced the player, the more likely he or she is to being set in their playstyle- immersive or using their PCs like chess pieces.

 

[pukunui]

We try to play it RAW as possible and thats when it splits. There are ppl who just take the mechanics of 4th ed and invent their own fluff. Its good, but for a game thats just 4 months old, its like buying a new car and immediately giving it a fresh coat of paint without actually getting used to the original colour.

That's me. LOL. Can't stand to play with rules I don't agree with, so I'm always fiddling pretty much from the get-go. My players, on the other hand, have said on several occasions that they would prefer to play 4e "without deviating from the default rules" before tinkering.

I've been in the hobby for 30+ years, and sometimes its just plain difficult to be "in character" when things heat up.

However, I've noticed that players are less likely to break character when they're using a system that puts a premium on customization- usually point-based/modular/generic systems. IME, players who have spent time tricking out their GURPS, HERO or M&M character (to name but a few systems) seem more closely tied to their PC and staying in character, perhaps because they've spent so much time coming up with this kewl power or that rockin' trick.

As always, YMMV.

And as far as I can tell, the more experienced the player, the more likely he or she is to being set in their playstyle- immersive or using their PCs like chess pieces.

Would you include SWSE, with its talent trees, in that group? I definitely feel like the SWSE rules place a greater emphasis on roleplaying than the 4e rules do. My group still tends to devolve into "chess piece" combats when we play SWSE (although I try my darndest to always be descriptive with my character's actions), but outside of it, there's a lot more roleplaying going on ...

I'll admit that it could easily be as much my DMing style as the game we're playing. And maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there. I suppose one way to test that would be to DM a different system and see if it makes any difference in playstyle.

 

[bagger245]

Different system does affect playstyle according to my experience. I heard alot of people who say that roleplaying is exclusive to the game system though. Play an exact medieval fantasy adventure using 3.5 and the storyteller system. See how your players act during combat.

I think playstyles are much obvious during combat since most of the rules usage are in combat. I roleplay the same way when i go into an inn and order a jug of ale from the dwarf, but i play differently in combat in 3.5 compared to exalted.

FInd a game system that focus on narrative combat instaed of tactical. Play feng shui..hehe..

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Would you include SWSE, with its talent trees, in that group? I definitely feel like the SWSE rules place a greater emphasis on roleplaying than the 4e rules do. My group still tends to devolve into "chess piece" combats when we play SWSE (although I try my darndest to always be descriptive with my character's actions), but outside of it, there's a lot more roleplaying going on ...

I can't speak to SWSE- I've never played it.