Forked Thread: gimme some narration

[Delta]

How about spending the first 20 minutes of each session doing roleplaying prep work? You know, writing descriptions for powers, talking about plot points, discussing what would happen. Stuff like that.

I'd advise the OP to be cautious with that. Basically, he's fighting against his players' preferred playstyle. For those of us who dislike the chatty-"deep roleplay" stuff, written homework barring us from the game is an instant turnoff.

 

[pukunui]

Are your players actually saying "I roll diplomacy" without telling you what their characters say? Or are they restricting that sort of behavior to things where there is no dialogue, like attacks or athletics checks to climb a rope?

Sometimes they do but I don't let them get away with it.

D&D isn't a glorified board game. If D&D were a board game, it would be vastly sub par by modern board game standards. That's how you can tell its an RPG.

As much as I was all for 4e at the start, it's really starting to feel like a glorified board game to me.

Just figured that I'd pipe up to explain that the snobbery is supposed to go the other direction.

I wasn't trying to be snobbish. I was just venting my frustration with a game system that has not lived up to my expectations or its own hype. Would you be happier if I said that D&D 4e feels more like a glorified minis game than an RPG?


Anyway, I have just sent my group an e-mail telling them that I am quitting 4e. The actual issues I have with the system aside, the other reason I am resigning as DM is that everyone in the group has become too time poor to participate with any sort of game and/or character development outside of game night. And the unfortunate increase in PC complexity with 4e has only exacerbated this problem.

By way of example, I sent the guys an e-mail a week ago asking the three players whose PCs had leveled up to get back to me with their level-up details. To date, not one of them has replied and we normally game on Friday (it's Weds night now). This means that if we were to play on Friday, we'd have to eat up valuable gaming time to get the three PCs leveled up and then we'd have to make do without cards for their new powers (not the end of the world, I know, but an added hassle that I don't want to have to deal with, what with the fact that each power essentially has its own mini formula for determining attack modifiers and the like). This was more or less the last straw for me, as I have been struggling to organize and run this game with virtually no input from my players for the past few months now and it's been very frustrating (they used to be good about responding to e-mails in a timely manner but now I'm lucky to get even one response and even then it's usually not a complete one ...).

So anyway ... I am now going to proceed to build my own fantasy RPG using the Star Wars Saga rules as the foundation (I think Saga's talents and talent tree class system are vastly superior in their elegance, simplicity and sensibility to 4e's powers-based class system, which strikes me as clunky and artificial - I think the simulationist in me is finally starting to gain the upper hand ... ha ha.).

I have told my players that they are welcome to play with me using this new system so long as they can commit to a greater level of participation outside of game night, and I've given them plenty of room to gracefully excuse themselves should they not wish to continue. In any event, we'll all still be getting together every fortnight to play SWSE, which one of the other guys in the group GMs ... and so even if I have to find a totally new group to run my new game with, I'll still see these guys on a regular basis.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sometimes they do but I don't let them get away with it.

As much as I was all for 4e at the start, it's really starting to feel like a glorified board game to me.

I wasn't trying to be snobbish. I was just venting my frustration with a game system that has not lived up to my expectations or its own hype. Would you be happier if I said that D&D 4e feels more like a glorified minis game than an RPG?


Anyway, I have just sent my group an e-mail telling them that I am quitting 4e. The actual issues I have with the system aside, the other reason I am resigning as DM is that everyone in the group has become too time poor to participate with any sort of game and/or character development outside of game night. And the unfortunate increase in PC complexity with 4e has only exacerbated this problem.

By way of example, I sent the guys an e-mail a week ago asking the three players whose PCs had leveled up to get back to me with their level-up details. To date, not one of them has replied and we normally game on Friday (it's Weds night now). This means that if we were to play on Friday, we'd have to eat up valuable gaming time to get the three PCs leveled up and then we'd have to make do without cards for their new powers (not the end of the world, I know, but an added hassle that I don't want to have to deal with, what with the fact that each power essentially has its own mini formula for determining attack modifiers and the like). This was more or less the last straw for me, as I have been struggling to organize and run this game with virtually no input from my players for the past few months now and it's been very frustrating (they used to be good about responding to e-mails in a timely manner but now I'm lucky to get even one response and even then it's usually not a complete one ...).

Sorry to hear that - though if you hadn't fun anymore, it is the right decision.

So anyway ... I am now going to proceed to build my own fantasy RPG using the Star Wars Saga rules as the foundation (I think Saga's talents and talent tree class system are vastly superior in their elegance, simplicity and sensibility to 4e's powers-based class system, which strikes me as clunky and artificial - I think the simulationist in me is finally starting to gain the upper hand ... ha ha.).

Another one lost in trying to find his perfect system?

Remember, if you can't find players willing to play your system and committing time to the game in general, all your efforts are wasted... (Well, except for the fun that creating a new system creates, of course. But I think it would be a lot more fun if you also get to use it.)

I think while finding a better system is a noble goal, it also strikes me as something dangerous - and possibly futile, too. If what you really want is to play (as a DM or as a player), this is not the direction to go. What you have to do is find or recruit the right players. First creating the perfect game might seem "easier" because you only have to rely on yourself for that, but it doesn't achieve the goal of having an entertaining game night. For the latter, you need the right people. The right system is more a bonus then anything else!

Finding the right group might be a far more frustrating exercise then creating a new game system, since it can be full of disappointments, compromises and setbacks. (Like finding a good player but who has to move away because of his new job. Or never finding the "perfect" match and having to accept compromises - playing only once a month instead once a week or similar problems...)

 

[Cadfan]

Sometimes they do but I don't let them get away with it.

I'd consider that a problem. Do you think you might have better success getting them to roleplay diplomacy checks if you didn't insist upon in-character descriptions of Piercing Strike?

As much as I was all for 4e at the start, it's really starting to feel like a glorified board game to me.

Then play better board games. Hie thee forth to the board game subforum, and there do what'ere you are told by the Good Sir MerricB.

I wasn't trying to be snobbish. I was just venting my frustration with a game system that has not lived up to my expectations or its own hype. Would you be happier if I said that D&D 4e feels more like a glorified minis game than an RPG?

Possibly. On a chart of gaming snobbery, RPGers and miniature gamers have a small pair of arrows, pointing back and forth at one another.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I kind of recognize the OP's point, because I too feel that we are less in character during combat and busier with tactical combat. However we enjoy the tactical combat way more than the 3e combat (which didn't have much description in oru games either anyway) and we are also still learning all the ropes of 4e combat. I think that once 4e combat is completely mastered (ruleswise, not perse tacticswise) we will have also more opportunity to work some roleplay into combat, because we won't have to think of the rules all the time or try to remember the power's exact effects.

As DM I usually describe the effects of the powers with a little bit of narration and have the enenmies cry out to each other or yell intimidating screams at the players and such to give it all some flair, but it's not super immersive. However I feel we've been far more immersed in our characters outside of combat than we were in previous editions...

 

[GnomeWorks]

So anyway ... I am now going to proceed to build my own fantasy RPG using the Star Wars Saga rules as the foundation (I think Saga's talents and talent tree class system are vastly superior in their elegance, simplicity and sensibility to 4e's powers-based class system, which strikes me as clunky and artificial - I think the simulationist in me is finally starting to gain the upper hand ... ha ha.).

This might help you get started. It might not have quite the flavor you're looking for, but I imagine it would be helpful for what you want to do.

 

[pukunui]

Sorry to hear that - though if you hadn't fun anymore, it is the right decision.

Thanks.

Another one lost in trying to find his perfect system?

Possibly. I wouldn't say that any system is perfect, and I acknowledge that the pursuit of perfection is ultimately futile. Perhaps what I am trying to do is find a system that maximizes the fun for me and also plays to the strengths of the people I play with (assuming, of course, that they're even going to want to continue to play with me after this).

Because I've been DMing D&D (both 3.5 and 4e) with most of them for some time now, as well as playing a SWSE game that one of the others has been GMing since early this year, I have had the chance to observe how the group reacts to different systems. Everyone seems to get the most enjoyment out of the Saga rules. Whether this would still be true if we were playing a fantasy game rather than Star Wars remains to be seen, but I would like to give it a try ...

Remember, if you can't find players willing to play your system and committing time to the game in general, all your efforts are wasted... (Well, except for the fun that creating a new system creates, of course. But I think it would be a lot more fun if you also get to use it.)

Agreed. What I'm hoping is that because the guys like the Saga system with Star Wars, they'll be willing to give it a try as a fantasy game as well.

I think while finding a better system is a noble goal, it also strikes me as something dangerous - and possibly futile, too. If what you really want is to play (as a DM or as a player), this is not the direction to go. What you have to do is find or recruit the right players. First creating the perfect game might seem "easier" because you only have to rely on yourself for that, but it doesn't achieve the goal of having an entertaining game night. For the latter, you need the right people. The right system is more a bonus then anything else!

Finding the right group might be a far more frustrating exercise then creating a new game system, since it can be full of disappointments, compromises and setbacks. (Like finding a good player but who has to move away because of his new job. Or never finding the "perfect" match and having to accept compromises - playing only once a month instead once a week or similar problems...)

I understand what you're getting at, and I believe I am aware of the potential pitfalls, but I am fairly confident that most, if not all, of my current group will want to continue. They are my friends, after all. But I think I have a right to enjoy things, and I'm not enjoying 4e as much as I thought I would ... whereas I am immensely enjoying Saga. I think it will only enhance the group's experience at the table.

I'd consider that a problem. Do you think you might have better success getting them to roleplay diplomacy checks if you didn't insist upon in-character descriptions of Piercing Strike?

I don't insist on it. I've simply encouraged it (and possibly whinged about it too). But the latter doesn't happen often no matter how much encouragement I give them ... but I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Sorry.

Then play better board games. Hie thee forth to the board game subforum, and there do what'ere you are told by the Good Sir MerricB.

I'm also not really sure what you're getting at here, either. Am I insulting board games? Or 4e? Or have I totally lost the plot here?

This might help you get started. It might not have quite the flavor you're looking for, but I imagine it would be helpful for what you want to do.

Cool thanks. I'll have a look at that when I get a chance (I'm at work now). I've also read through The Gneech's excellent S&S Saga conversion (and I'm eagerly awaiting version 2). He tells me he's almost finished a monster doc to go with it all and he's also working on converting the 3.5 classes into talent tree classes. Lots of good stuff. There are some things about his conversion I don't like, though, so I don't think I'll use it wholesale.

I'm also aware of the Fantasy Concepts pdf, but I haven't purchased it, so I don't know what's in it or if it's any good (I did find a review of it from a guy who was less than impressed with it, though, which has put me off a little bit).

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'd advise the OP to be cautious with that. Basically, he's fighting against his players' preferred playstyle. For those of us who dislike the chatty-"deep roleplay" stuff, written homework barring us from the game is an instant turnoff.

Well here's another thing to be cautious about... do any your players read Enworld, Pukunui? Did you consider showing them this thread? It's the best/worst idea ever!

 

[pukunui]

Well here's another thing to be cautious about... do any your players read Enworld, Pukunui? Did you consider showing them this thread? It's the best/worst idea ever!

No fortunately they don't. I'm not even sure any of them know about ENWorld ... although I have mentioned it a few times, I think. Anyway, only one of my players has ever really used the forums and even then, he's only ever been on the WotC forums (and he hasn't been on in ages because he's been relegated to dial-up internet ... *shudder*).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Agreed. What I'm hoping is that because the guys like the Saga system with Star Wars, they'll be willing to give it a try as a fantasy game as well.

Maybe it is not the system, but the setting? if they liked Saga best so far, is it because of the rules or is it because of the fact that it's Sci-Fi/Star Wars?

Maybe Lightsabers, blasters and spaceships are far cooler then swords and bows to them?

Or is it something more specific? Do your Saga adventures simply rock more then everything you ever did with Fantasy? Or do you just - as a DM - feel more engaged in the Star Wars game. If you're not happy with how the players narrate their power, maybe your "unhappiness" shows in other aspects, too.

It is possible it's just the system. But ensure that it's not just because the players like Sci-Fi or Star Wars more then Fantasy or D&D.