D&D General Four Ability Scores

[doctorbadwolf]

In principle I agree. Certainly there's uneccessary overlap. What does Acrobatics do that Dexterity(Athletics) doesn't?

But skills in 5E just don't do enough for that to be worth the trouble. To have a reasonable chance of achieving something you need both Ability Mod and Proficiency.

In 4E skills added +5 and that's the minimun number necessary to have skills have meaningful impact. (Because DCs scale by 5 - so an increase of +5 means you can now hit a higher category of DC for the same roll).

In practice I find that if you start moving around skills and ability scores you just take reliability away from the players. Ability scores come first. So if the Cleric player takes Insight because he has a high Wisdom - it doesn't help him much if he is then asked to roll Charisma (Insight) -- the ability score is where the weight in the system is (at least until quite high levels).

You could probably just drop skills entirely and say to players pick 2 ability scores and have proficiency in all skill checks with those scores and the game wouldn't really play appreciably different (You'd lose the illusion of choice - which is not nothing - but it is mostly an illusion).

In any case the system is vestigial enough that you can remove the skills - replace them with 13th Age style backgrounds, or just sub in a new skill list entirely and nothing will really break.

DCs scale by 5? Pretty sure the DM sets DCs, and in published modules being proficient certainly makes a difference. As for the idea of losing skills and picking two attributes instead...if the game wouldn’t play very, very, differently for you with that change, you and I are playing very different games.

 

[Don Durito]

DCs scale by 5? Pretty sure the DM sets DCs, and in published modules being proficient certainly makes a difference. As for the idea of losing skills and picking two attributes instead...if the game wouldn’t play very, very, differently for you with that change, you and I are playing very different games.

From the SRD
Typical Difficulty Classes

Task Difficulty	DC
Very easy	5
Easy	10
Medium	15
Hard	20
Very hard	25
Nearly impossible	30

How many Strength based characters don't take Athletics (Aka - Strength the Skill)?
How many Charisma based characters don't take Persuade or Deception?

I'd be very surprised if you looked at your PCs character sheets and most of the skills picked aren't in abilities PCs are good at.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'd be very surprised if you looked at your PCs character sheets and most of the skills picked aren't in abilities PCs are good at.

Either that or to partially cover a weak stat. For instance, taking one CHA skill so you have an option in social encounters in spite of no CHA bonus.

Of course, with 5e BA, you can prettymuch just roll any check, anyway Easy or Medium, you have a shot. Sometimes you'll make it.

 

[Don Durito]

The one I've seen players take the most even with a low ability score is Perception.

Which I tend to think of as more of a saving throw than a skill really.

 

[Ratskinner]

Personally, I think we could drop all the ability scores. They just add a random layer of imbalance, AFAICT. I'd rather see more capability and skills baked into the class itself, in part harkening back to earlier editions. So all Fighters would be equal in fighting ability, as its a class thing. To handle many of the differences and quirks mentioned in the thread so far, I would implement some kind of aspects system (like feats, but targeting the kinds of strengths and weaknesses that people have mentioned and only available at creation). Some of these aspects could even be linked to race.

The aspects would only affect non-combat abilities, either by granting advantage to certain actions or permitting them in the first place. This might make them more fundamental to some classes than others, and as such could be restricted to a given class, background, or race. So two fighters will have equal combat ability, but the one with "Strong as an Ox" will still play differently from the one who is "Grizzled Veteran".

Then again, maybe playing Fate has affected by perspective on the utility of numerical attributes too much.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

From the SRD
Typical Difficulty Classes

Task Difficulty	DC
Very easy	5
Easy	10
Medium	15
Hard	20
Very hard	25
Nearly impossible	30

How many Strength based characters don't take Athletics (Aka - Strength the Skill)?
How many Charisma based characters don't take Persuade or Deception?

I'd be very surprised if you looked at your PCs character sheets and most of the skills picked aren't in abilities PCs are good at.

Then be surprised. Every character in every campaign in my group, as well as the library public game I DM for, has skills that aren’t tied to their top stats.

 

[Yaarel]

It's not very satsifying - Insight is half a skill. If the skill was "Empathy" you'd have the other half.

Exactly. Insight − the ability to read other peoples emotions − namely Empathy − is an extremely important social skill. It needs to relocate to Charisma, along with the rest of the social skills.

To put social skills anywhere else is unsatisfying and kludgy.

Say you're playing a Ranger with a Wis 16 and a Charisma of 8.

And that is the problem. Wisdom needs to cease to exist.

Its Insight social skill and its Willpower saving throw (its ‘force of personality’) function more integrally as part of Charisma.

Meanwhile, its Perception skill needs to become part of Intelligence, where it belongs, merging back into Investigation. As such, Intelligence has the Perception saving throw.

And there is nothing left that actually belongs to ‘Wisdom’. Wisdom lacks a reason to exist.



So the solution is, there be only two mental abilities:

• Intelligence-(Lore)-Perception-(Investigation-Deception)

• Charisma-(Persuasion-Intimidation-Performance)-Wisdom-(Empathy-Willpower)



With regard to the Ranger, why did the class associate with Wisdom? Was it because it was Perceptive or was it because it was social? In the case of the Ranger, it seems to me less social, and more about perceiving the phenomena of Nature and comprehending the sciences of Nature. In other words, Ranger inclines Intelligence-Perception.




In sum, the foursome.

• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics

• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

 

[Don Durito]

Personally, I think we could drop all the ability scores. They just add a random layer of imbalance, AFAICT. I'd rather see more capability and skills baked into the class itself, in part harkening back to earlier editions. So all Fighters would be equal in fighting ability, as its a class thing. To handle many of the differences and quirks mentioned in the thread so far, I would implement some kind of aspects system (like feats, but targeting the kinds of strengths and weaknesses that people have mentioned and only available at creation). Some of these aspects could even be linked to race.

The aspects would only affect non-combat abilities, either by granting advantage to certain actions or permitting them in the first place. This might make them more fundamental to some classes than others, and as such could be restricted to a given class, background, or race. So two fighters will have equal combat ability, but the one with "Strong as an Ox" will still play differently from the one who is "Grizzled Veteran".

Then again, maybe playing Fate has affected by perspective on the utility of numerical attributes too much.

Yes. I'd do something similar.

I'd consider using something like Spiritual Attributes from Riddle of Steel. So one Character might have: Destiny - to be king + 3, Conscience +4, Oath to Avenge my father's murder +3 etc.

But it needs the right group to be open to that. And it's always going to be something to houserule. I'd don't think it's something that is ever going to be main stream.

 

[Don Durito]

Exactly. Insight − the ability to read other peoples emotions − namely Empathy − is an extremely important social skill. It needs to relocate to Charisma, along with the rest of the social skills.

To put social skills anywhere else is unsatisfying and kludgy.





And that is the problem. Wisdom needs to cease to exist.

Its Insight social skill and its Willpower saving throw (its ‘force of personality’) function more integrally as part of Charisma.

Meanwhile, its Perception skill needs to become part of Intelligence, where it belongs, merging back into Investigation. As such, Intelligence has the Perception saving throw.

And there is nothing left that actually belongs to ‘Wisdom’. Wisdom lacks a reason to exist.



So the solution is, there be only two mental abilities:

• Intelligence-(Lore)-Perception-(Investigation-Deception)

• Charisma-(Persuasion-Intimidation-Performance)-Wisdom-(Empathy-Willpower)



With regard to the Ranger, why did the class associate with Wisdom? Was it because it was Perceptive or was it because it was social? In the case of the Ranger, it seems to me less social, and more about perceiving the phenomena of Nature and comprehending the sciences of Nature. In other words, Ranger inclines Intelligence-Perception.




In sum, the foursome.

• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics

• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

It's a more logical breakdown, definintely.

But I personally don't want the situation where one PC is clearly best in social situations anymore than I want any one PC to dominate in combat.

Not that there aren't other ways to split the pie. You could have particular PCs have ways to be situationally better I guess.

 

[Yaarel]

If you're cutting down ability scores then you really should get rid of Charisma.

Because the social pillar shouldn't depend on just one score.

Shadows of a Demon Lord has Strength, Agility, Intellect, and Will. This is a pretty good set-up that covers things well. (Perception is slightly separate, it is derived from intellect at the beginning but may be altered seperately by class and race abilities).

Shadows of a Demon Lord (by Robert Schwalb) has an ability foursome: Strength, Agility, Intellect, and Will.

Will = Charisma-Wisdom
• Willpower
• Sanity
• Persuasion
• Intimidation

Will is absolutely identical to the Charisma-Wisdom of the ability foursome in this thread.



Intellect = Intelligence-Perception
• Perception
• Reasoning
• Deception
• Lore

Intellect is absolutely identical to the Intelligence-Perception of the ability foursome in this thread.



Agility = Dexterity-Athletics
• Body Agility
• Reflex
• AC Bonus
• Jump (!)
• Manual Dexterity
• Ranged Weapons
• Finesse Weapons

Agility is identical to the Dexterity-Athletics in this thread, except Agility lacks Speed (Run, Swim, Climb).



Strength = Strength-Constitution
• Fortitude
• Health
• Hit Points
• Melee Weapons
• Grapple
• Carry, Lift, Pull, Push
• Speed, Run, Swim, Climb

Strength is identical to the Strength-Constitution of the ability foursome in this thread, except it has Speed.



Great minds think alike!