FR Update at WotC-Year of the Ageless One

[The Little Raven]

Third, I don't think they actually have meaningful statistics. They might think no one uses Unther (or whatever), but I want to see them prove it in some meaningful fashion.

They don't owe you any inside look at their market research or their decision-making process. They know far better what drives the sales of their books than you, or any poster on this forum.

 

[Arnwyn]

Again with this attitude. I have yet to see that FR consumers will be leaving in droves. I have seen people complaining in the forums and promising to do just that. We have no idea how representative that sample is. Most of the hard core FR fans I know are happy with the changes and plan to get the new FR books asap. I would never claim that this group is representative however. We don't know.

I agree - we don't know. When it comes to numbers, I'm only guessing as much as the next guy. My evidence comes from Candlekeep (certainly a very much high-purchasing group), in which the reaction is decidedly negative. Same with the WotC boards. Your source?

I do take umbrage with so many posters implying that only newcomers to the Realms will like the new edition. There are lots of us who've been fans from the beginning who are happy with the ideas presented thus far.

As you've stated on multiple occasions in multiple posts. Of course, I suspect you're in the minority. Are you? Nobody knows for sure, but that's why it's only my suspicions.

This is such amazing nonsense. I used to be a big FR fan before 3E continued down the road that 2E had put it on, and really continued to boring-up the Realms. I bought virtually every 1E and 2E area supplement, and sadly, a lot of of the novels, as well as every FR-themed computer game post-1990. I really like the sound of what I'm hearing about 4E, and I will be purchasing the 4E FRCS.

Ooooh... Not just nonsense, but "amazing" nonsense. Woo! Of course, it's nothing of the sort, but you keep on with those great phrases. Good on ya!

I'm not a "newcomer". A "returner", maybe, but perhaps that's beyond you seemingly weak comprehension.

There's no evidence that anyone is "leaving in droves", either. Based on this and other forums, it seems like most of the OMG I WONT RUN THE 4E FR 4 SURE! types also, in other threads, admit that they're pretty anti-4E per se, and thus were hardly going to buy any 4E products anyway, and the "leavers" seem far from numerous.

Heh. My "seemingly weak comprehension". Another good one from you, Ruin Explorer. As noted above, my evidence is from the Candlekeep and WotC boards. It's the internet, and not representative in any way, shape, or form - but I'll stick with my guesses, and you can stick with yours. If you want to quibble between "newcomer" and "returner", go right ahead. I suspect you won't be getting very far.

"Weak comprehension" indeed. Ouch! The irony.

 

[Badkarmaboy]

Why can't we all just love each other? Sigh.

FWIW, I would not base the potential sales of 4E FR stuff off of the reaction on Candlekeep or the wotc boards for a minute. Especially wotc-it's the same 5 knotheads ranting on for 25 pages. It seems like foaming hysteria over there. ENworld may have it's moments, but at least it's a fairly reasonable discussion.

Also, given global sales of Wizards FR products, Candlekeep is probably a drop in the bucket. It's also a pretty diehard segment of the buying public. I just can't see it as representative of the population as a whole. If you do Arwyn, more power to you.

Last thing-I got the feeling (esp. on the wotc boards) that there was much discontent amongst the anti-4E crowd with the Time of Troubles and a good portion of stuff put out in 3E. If that's the case, why did that stuff end up selling as well as it did? It makes me wonder how much all this rancor will end up effecting sales.

Once folks calm down (and get a look see at what's put forth) I bet attitudes will change somewhat. If they don't...eh.

 

[Aloïsius]

I don't worry for the sales. WotC know what they do, and I bet sales will at least be on par with 3e.

I don't worry for the overall quality or consistence of the whole product : it's FR, remember ! This is not about consistence, this is about giving your PC the best playground possible. And I think they will just do that.

Sure, I liked the wealth of gods in 3e. But what's the problem ? I still have my 3e books, and can perfectly add them as sourcebooks for 4e.

New ideas, new world, new rules... better than same idea, same world, same rules. It's a new edition : it would be dishonest if the damned stuff was the same ! I'm happy this is not 3.75

 

[IanB]

If I may put my Comic Book Store guy shirt on for a moment, with regard to the dragonborn:

Worst. Explanation. Ever.

Seriously, they have months to think about this, and 100 years of history to give them plenty of story space to explain it, and they come up with "sucked in from another world"? Argh, that is so completely lazy. Even though I don't even play FR, it offends my inner world builder.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Some weeks or months ago there was discussion about the comment in the Grand History book about “the joining of two worlds” or the “disastrous joining of two worlds.” (speculated to be Aber and Toril) I still wonder what that was referring to exactly, because in this article it sounds like a least two worlds have joined Toril; the fae one connected to it at islands with the pseudo-Celts, and the one with the dragon-born people where Unther used to be.

It all feels like poorly thought out, “New Coke” kind of deal.

 

[Voss]

They don't owe you any inside look at their market research or their decision-making process. They know far better what drives the sales of their books than you, or any poster on this forum.

Owe? No.

But if they want my money they need to do more than present this amateur hour garbage. They've presented a lot of fluff changes and some rules changes. The rules changes largely appeal to me, so I will probably pick up the Core books. The fluff changes... well those range from a few passable ones to many, many poor ones. Justifying why they are making such poor choices is one of the few ways they're even going to have a chance at convincing me to pick up a fluff or setting book.

 

[hunter1828]

It all feels like poorly thought out, “New Coke” kind of deal.

Great comparison! I wish I'd thought of that!

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

I wonder if there in an internet rule that no matter how wretched an idea is, at least a handful of people will ardently support it… sight unseen.

They don't owe you any inside look at their market research or their decision-making process.

First, even in so far as that is true, it does not mean we are required to have faith in WotC or their products, particularly before we have seen the product. Further, possessing copious amounts of market information does not actually mean they are properly making decisions and implementing plans based on that information. Frankly, it would be easier for them to do what ever the hell they wanted and then point to hidden numbers as justification for what ever they are doing.

Second, I do not think Voss was demanding to see those “numbers” or to be granted access to confidential WotC information. It appears he was interpreting the situation based on comments, essays and so forth that have been presented by the WotC people. Frankly, I agree with his assessment.

They might think no one uses Unther (or whatever), but I want to see them prove it in some meaningful fashion.

My reading of it is that they didn’t even believe that “no one uses Unther,” but that “Unther bored the WotC creative team,” so it got canned.

 

[Faraer]

I suspect Realms-2008 is pretty well thought out, as a Frankenstein designed to appeal to as many different groups as possible while minimizing development costs, with Realmslore rationalizations crafted sometimes post hoc around these priorities, though I dare say with a nice dose of guesswork and designer hubris too.

We don't yet know enough to judge those rationalizations: there's more to Tymanther and the Dragonborn than has been revealed, for instance, as with other things like the death of Halaster.

There isn't much to say about secret market research. It does give their decisions credibility, but it isn't an infallible oracle which we should take on faith, either.