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Free Will and Story

Hussar

Legend
In my experience power gamers almost always take it too far, and will do so regardless of how restrictive the campaign is. I don't really think there is a connection between how driven someone is to power game and how many options they have with directing the campaign. Personally I feel that power gaming is simply a play style, power gamers enjoy creating powerful characters so that's what they do.

That's fair enough, although, I do disagree. In my experience, many people who get labeled "power gamers" are simply cognizant of the math of the game and act within the rules to get the most bang for their buck. Frequently, those who have no interest in the math behind the game only see the min/max element and start crying "power gamer BAD!" and presume that just because someone can make a competent character that they don't care anything about the story.

Heck, I've been accused of that a few times. And it's always by players/DM's who have little or no interest in mechanics. The last time, I had created a priest in 3e with an entire backstory (that I referenced often in game) goals (again, referenced nearly every session) and a fair bit of research (at least Wikipedia level) into Zoroastrianism to build a coherent faith for this character.

But, because I was a cleric in 3e, I was also prone to CoDzilla. Not because I was deliberately breaking the game, but, because a cleric in 3e is a very potent character. It's not difficult at all to make a cleric really shine. Top tier class and all that. But, I took cleric because that was what fit with the character (a priest of a fire god who burned the sinners), not because I wanted to break his game.

His game broke down because he did not take any time to actually sit down and learn the game. "Oh, I only want to tell a good story" is great and all. But, if that's what you want, then play a system that isn't chock a block with buttons and levers for the players to fiddle with. Or, if you do, don't bitch when someone who actually takes the time to learn the rules, one shots your big bad guy because you couldn't be bothered.
 

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Kelimar

First Post
I have no complaint against players who build competent characters and wouldnt request that a player they handicap themselves or their character. However what I was trying to say was that the power gamers I have interacted with personally take building a character to a whole new level. These characters aren't simply competent their over powered. A good example would be a character that in fourth edition (not my campaign) could hand out so many defense buffs to his compatriots that the monsters literally couldn't roll high enough to hit them, on top of that that player (as well as the others who I consider to be "power gamers") has a strong tendency to when asked to make a new character because their current one is too overpowered, simply return the following session with a new equally overpowered character.

also I find a lot of players who hold this mindset are unable to grasp that what they are doing is not only making running the game frustrating for the DM, but also actively decreasing the amount of fun that their cohorts have in any given session by a) taking away the challenge and b) making everyone else feel very unimpressive. Such players I.M.E only really enjoy the game when they are playing the all star of the party and showing everyone else up.

that is where my complaints with power gamers are rooted.
 


I fully admit my faults as a DM, in that I don't have a fantastic grasp of the mechanics of the engine we are using to run the game, and at times my on the fly decisions can go beyond the realm of "just outside the rules" straight into the land of "I just made this up".

Seriously, it sounds as if D&D is the wrong game for you. And of the D&Ds, 4e is the best of them for satisfying you. I'd recommend that for your next campaign you look at Fate Core or possibly even Apocalypse World.

This is because I have had little in the way of motivation to read the library worth of play books which would be required to sufficiently satisfy Fortune in particular.

This makes no sense to me. The DM tools and the player tools are strictly separated - and other than the DMG/DMG2/DM Kit all you ever need to look at are monster manuals.

My complaints with 4e are rooted in the dichotomy between my expectations and experiences with the system. My expectations are that I would like to run a campaign where the characters represent exceptionally talented individuals who are in no way super heroes much like how the main characters of the Lord of the Rings are. Whereas the engine itself encourages the "I'm a super hero" point of view.

It sounds as if you want heroic tier. Level 1-3 as a starting point and rising to level 10. Paragon tier gets slightly crazy - and each PC is about the equivalent of a platoon of skilled orcs (as opposed to 1 skilled orc at heroic). As a rule of thumb, in 4e character power doubles every 4 levels - in older editions it doubles every 2.

I heavily dislike that the engine encourages high level players to combat gods,

I hope "Welcome to D&D" doesn't sound too snarky. Queen of the Demonweb Pits, combating Lolth, was an oD&D/1e module for levels 10-14 first released in 1979. Deities and Demigods (aka the monster manual for munchkins) was released in 1980. And lead to a lot of killed deities. D&D at high level does this. Feature rather than bug - but I've never run a game at epic tier in 4e which is where you'd have to get to to take on a god directly by the MM.

The party combated the Demon and the combat was beginning to drag, the players had already wiped out all of the minions in the fight and were down to just going around the table beating on the demon who, as you may know had an excess of hit points due to his being a solo. I decided to have the goddess use the last of her power available in a last ditched attack against the demon, throwing a haphazard beam of energy out before dying.

Gngk. They errata'd the solo rules to fix this. But yes, it was a mistake in the system.

Dm: (Thinking) damn I figured they would have more HP than that, they usually brush off mountains of damage

This is one of the design issues with 4e that's intended to encourage tension. Combat is set up with the idea that PCs shrug off damage by spending healing surges, so the damage they take looks a lot worse than it is. But to do this they need to actively spend the surges. Monsters on the other hand are set up to not have to do this to make the damage they've suffered look less than it is - and to prevent the DM having to faff around with healing surges. (3.X and Next are both designed with PC/NPC symmetry in mind). This asymmetry in 4e makes part of the job of the PCs to be able to rescue each other, and when someone goes down it's tense but not utterly overwhelming. A lot of the design goals in 4e revolve round the idea that some of the most exciting moments revolve round trying to prevent a pear shaped situation turning into a catastrophe (hence the three-strikes-and-out skill challenges and the scrabbling round to heal people). One-shotting someone in 4e (and it's slightly easier than it looks) goes against the entire design intent.

But of course they never put designers notes into the game. So it's not easy to spot that this is a problem (largely because no monster ever has the ability to one-shot a PC without multiple failed saves).

We return to the room and Meva has a short discource with the party during which one member and an npc convert to her and she resurrects Bruuf and Fortune against their wills.

And here things IMO went truly off the rails.

But then that could have also been the setting I was using, I was trying to keep my campaign combat light as I found it both bogged down the game and ate up large portions of time which could be better used in the limited time I had to get my story across before I would have to wait another month to continue.

Again, it sounds as if you want heroic tier. Preferably before 5th level as a starting point.

I also find great difficulty of getting the concept across to said players that what they are doing is actively damaging the fun of the other players. They can't rationalize why someone WOULDN'T min max a character and simply view other characters who aren't power gamed as being poorly built.

D&D started off life as a hacked tabletop wargame in which the intention was to win. And this has remained true throughout the history of D&D - the object isn't to win against the other PCs, it's to overwhelm the opposition. D&D is set up to enable such play (with one of the main criticisms of 4e being that it's balanced - i.e. that it clamps down on power gaming). I think that you either want to be running low level 4e (where there is little room for power gaming - once you cross the level 11 threshold all bets are off) or to be running a different game entirely. (And Next doesn't qualify here).

A lot of games (4e is actually one of them) either balance the system meaning powergaming isn't such a problem or go gonzo and near-impossible to break.

also I find a lot of players who hold this mindset are unable to grasp that what they are doing is not only making running the game frustrating for the DM, but also actively decreasing the amount of fun that their cohorts have in any given session by a) taking away the challenge and b) making everyone else feel very unimpressive. Such players I.M.E only really enjoy the game when they are playing the all star of the party and showing everyone else up.

that is where my complaints with power gamers are rooted.

Again, this is a system problem not a player problem. Building a character is an art - although anyone can netbook a powerful character. And 3e in particular made character building into a game in its own right. When you tell someone who enjoys this type of game that their character is too powerful, it means they succeeded at a game that 3e encouraged massively and 4e didn't eliminate. By asking them to retire their character you've just told them they won. And they won at a fun game that was intended by the designers.

If you're playing a fairly well balanced game where this isn't encouraged (again I'm going to point you at Fate Core or Apocalypse World, but heroic tier 4e fits this mold pretty well) powergaming as a problem almost goes away.

The whole campaign he was annoyed at nearly every NPC we met.

Sounds as if you have two charming players.

I think for some (maybe a lot) of players minmaxing and powergaming is just a symptom of a more general frustration with their lack of influence on the course of the game. The encounter "golden box" is the only place they have to demonstrate skillful+creative play so they come across as obsessed over the game math when really they're just bored and could become more engaged with the game in other ways if they were offered. The campaign described here has some interesting flavor elements but I get the sense that the players didn't have many opportunities to really change the narrative or make weighty, challenging decisions.

I strongly disagree with the idea that it's the encounter golden box that's the problem - see the 3.X strategic problems with barely restricted spellcasting. But yes, disruptive powergaming is often a response to DM storytelling. The players are there to engage with the world - and if the only way to engage with it is disrupt it rather than follow the DM's rails, that's what many do.
 
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Ahnehnois

First Post
It's worthing that one game group's powergamer is another group's slightly-unoptimized-pc.
Indeed. That's why trying to forcibly legislate the same definition of balance for everyone is not a good idea. Good DMs find ways to involve and support everyone to the extent that is needed (or control them to the extent needed).
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I just have to point out, though, that you can be friends with him without gaming with him.
That's debatable. He lives with me and the only time he leaves his room is to eat and play D&D really. If I didn't play D&D with him, I'd probably never see him. We met at the D&D group I joined when I was 15. That's pretty much what we've had in common since the beginning. We used to also do movies and watch tv. But since he has more free time than me, he's already watched all the shows before I even get off of work. And recently he's decided that he refuses to go into public long enough to go to a movie.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Jim is not a powergamer. The examples given above in MO's post (and the one I outlined) are examples of "disruptive, gross powergaming"; bringing silly, observably overpowered characters into play with a mind to "break the game."
He definitely doesn't see it as breaking the game. He sees it as winning it. If the goal of the game for him is to defeat monsters as quickly as possible while taking the least amount of damage as possible, then being able to lock down enemies so they can't fight back or killing them in one shot before they have a chance to act is the ultimate expression of the game, in his opinion. If the designers of the game didn't want someone playing that way, then they certainly wouldn't allow those options or they'd errata them once they noticed the problem. It isn't his fault that designers don't know how to properly balance a game.

He does not care about the fiction of the world beyond a thin veneer of caring. The game for him starts when we roll for initiative and ends when combat is over.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more that statement seems slightly wrong. He cares about WINNING the fiction as well. Like in our last session of this campaign. He decided to convince another whole army to help us defeat the demon. But they were on another continent, so they couldn't help us in time. So he created a teleportation circle on our ship so it would be mobile, then opened a portal to the other army when we got there. He then used a Consult the Oracle scroll to ask what the rune sequence was for the Teleportation Circle that was located inside the Golden City. After all(as he pointed out to the DM), the city was the seat of a large empire before it went missing. Certainly, they had their own teleportation circle somewhere deep inside the city. Consult the Oracle allows you to get any information ever possessed by anyone, so if someone ever knew it...he'd get the right answer. Anyone with the rune sequence can open a portal to a Teleportation Circle.

So, we bypassed all of the guards and the opposing army between us and the city by teleporting passed them.

To him, this is considered winning. The DM certainly had some encounters planned between us and the city. It would only make the most sense. If he bypasses those encounters, he's successfully beaten them...and in the process beat the DM by outsmarting him.

However, any time the plot doesn't have a clear path to "win", he stops paying any real attention to what's happening and waits for the next battle so he can use his cool combos again.

To your point though, there is without a doubt a decent number of powergamers who were born from the era of railroaded games, GM suspension of action resolution mechanics in favor of maintaining sanctity of metaplot, "rocks fall, you die" and the like. If they have no authority in the overarching narrative composition (eg decisions with only the illusion of meaning as metaplot will happen one way or another), then, after repeated exposure to the "All Roads Lead to Rome" technique, the evolved response to this may be to build "game-breaking" characters to forcibly impose their will upon the invincible metaplot in order to back GMs into a corner and expose the railroading machinery at work.
In Jim's case, I doubt this is the case. He just likes doing things that are unexpected. In real life in addition to games. People expect him to do things...so he says no to them. People don't expect him to do things so he does them. He likes being contrary.

He refuses to have a bank account, a drivers license or any other id because he doesn't want the government to have information about him. While the government sends him monthly cheques for disability since he has a mental illness. He takes his cheques to a Money Mart(instant cheque cashing place) that takes like 15% of the cheque as a processing free. When pointed out that if he had a bank account, he'd have more money and they already have all his information in order to be able to send him cheques in the first place he says he doesn't care. He's set his mind to the rule "I'll never have a bank account" and refuses to give up on the notion.
 

Hussar

Legend
Indeed. That's why trying to forcibly legislate the same definition of balance for everyone is not a good idea. Good DMs find ways to involve and support everyone to the extent that is needed (or control them to the extent needed).

But, that's not what balance is. Balance has nothing to do with players and never has. Balance is between options within the game. Well balanced games make it more difficult to break the system, but, that's a bonus. The point of well balanced systems is to allow more viable choices for players.

If option A is measurably better than option B, then most people will take A, not because they are power gamers or out to break the system, but, because A is better than B.

This is fundamental to any game design. Trying to ignore balance gives us systems like RIFTS.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
But, that's not what balance is. Balance has nothing to do with players and never has. Balance is between options within the game. Well balanced games make it more difficult to break the system, but, that's a bonus. The point of well balanced systems is to allow more viable choices for players.

That's only one possible definition for balance. But balance also may be about balance between players and how they are kept in relatively equal importance for the ongoing story rather than purely mechanical options. In fact, it's probably the single most important definition of balance for an RPG.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
The only way you avoid this is by (A) making all PC build tools extraordinarily limited and/or shallow, (B) making all PC build tools utterly discrete and non-stackable such that the siloing removes all possibility for 2nd and 3rd order synergies, (C) canvassing it clearly that you are playing a socially cooperative game and thematic archetype is paramount (and utterly power-gamed monstrosities, eg movement rate of 200 and a trail of 5 OG fire at your feet, are forbidden).
I agree and came to the same conclusion myself. Which is why I liked 4e so much. It attempted a bit of A and a lot of B to solve the problems I had with 3.5e and create a system where I didn't have to micromanage character creation to have what I considered an interesting game while having Jim around.

However, over time, Jim got frustrated by his character being relatively equal to everyone else in the group and started poking at the edges of the rules. He'd look for ANY feats or powers that gave untyped bonuses to try to stack them. As books came out they printed more and more of these. Add to that Hybrid characters and weird interactions because you are a member of two(or three classes) and therefore qualify for feats that weren't designed for your class and you have the makings of rather broken things.

I remember one of my biggest arguments with Jim was over a feat that let you knock down enemies when you hit them with a polearm. He decided to be a Wizard who multiclassed into fighter to qualify for the feat. Then he made a polearm into an arcane implement. He then wanted to knock everyone in an AOE prone when he "hit them with his polearm". It should be noted that he had some other feat that let him do extra damage to enemies whenever he knocked them prone. I suggested that although the letter of the feat said "Whenever to hit someone with a polearm" that it was never meant to be applied to spells that were channeled through a polearm. Plus, the feat that does extra damage to people you knock prone appeared to be, fiction wise, about you throwing them to the ground roughly and stepping on their face, doing more damage. It didn't specifically say that it wasn't supposed to be used with spells that knocked people prone...but the flavor of it didn't appear to be compatible. I agreed to allow the prone feat but that I was officially errataing the polearm feat to only apply to weapon attacks.

He got rather mad at me, telling me that I was trying to change the rules simply because I didn't like them. That he had found a perfectly legitimate character and I was trying to prevent him from playing it.

Which is why we started resorting to option C instead. I explained to him that from now on, we were going to only allow characters that I considered balanced for the fun of everyone and that he should try to build within that philosophy. He agreed that it was for the best. Then proceeded to create a string of characters that were "perfectly balanced, like you asked me to" but were clearly more powerful than everyone else in the group by far. I kept disallowing them over and over again. Each time he insisted they weren't overpowered. We jointly agreed that while the rules allowed him to create broken characters, he would continue to do so.

That's when I had to rule that no one could take Hybrid as an option and that you ONLY qualified for feats with your primary class. Being multiclassed into another class didn't make you considered that class for purposes of acquiring feats. That seemed to allow him to make normal characters(though, still very powerful). The only problem is another one of our friends(Ryan) managed to work within my new rules and still create a character who hit on a 2 90% of the time and needed 18s to hit by most monsters of his level.

It got me so frustrated that when the D&D Next playtest came out, I suggested we play that instead. So far it's working pretty well. The system doesn't have enough options to allow super power gaming. Which suits me fine. However, both Jim and Ryan have been complaining about their lack of options an inability to make the characters they want since our playtest started. They keep playing but they point out that if things don't change by the time the game is released, they don't want to play D&D Next. Each playtest that comes out they scour it for new options and powergaming potential. At the moment they've both decided that Druid is overpowered and they are fine playing it. Ryan was also invited to another group(without the rest of us) who plays Pathfinder and he thinks it's pretty awesome since it gives him so many options.

Anyone doing so is willfully working against the system to break it and would be willfully working against an explicit, social compact to not do so (which should be implicit...don't willfully work hard to "break stuff" or "don't ruin everyone's fun" is something that should be learned early on or you're going to have some problems normalizing to societal standards). If they grumble and work to sow misery at the table thereafter (because they can't play their willful, destructive Calvinball in a cooperative RPG game), the decision to excise them is one that should not come as a surprise to them.
The problem is, that it appears to be so ingrained in their mindset that this is the "proper" way to play the game that they are incapable of knowing when it is causing problems. Jim made a series of characters in my games that we was CONVINCED were not broken or abusive. Then, they proceeded to be broken and abusive. A couple of them he actually decided to retire himself after once session because he "had no idea it was going to be that powerful when he created it."

He tries to work with me...but, he doesn't seem to understand what broken means.
And we move onto the Encounter building "guidelines". There is nowhere in any rulebook that says you must adhere to some specific format. There is advice on what perturbing the system may create for pacing and expectant difficulty. That is it.
That's correct. Jim considers all guidelines to be rules that should only be broken with absolute system mastery and extenuating circumstances. Basically, if the DM doesn't know the rules as well as he does, then they can't be trusted to go beyond guidelines. Plus, even if they do know the rules as well as he does, they should know that those guidelines exist for a reason...to make the game the most fun. Going beyond them means you are purposefully making the game no fun and are being vindictive to your players.

I don't know where these ideas that 4e advocates bounded, Delve (3 encounters or progressive difficulty only) format play only and forbids all other adventuring day formats and/or the introduction of deadly encounters meant to be dealt with outside of the scope of the combat mechanics...but this garbage needs to die. Its flat out not true and its used only as a weapon in edition warring nonsense. Allowing it to proliferate only serves those edition war ends.
I can tell you where my ideas come from. It's from when I sat in a room with Mike Mearls and...crap, forgetting the name of the manager of R&D at the time. Since I volunteered to be an admin for Living Forgotten Realms, I got a session for about 10 of us who were available to teach us about 4e(this was before it came out). We were running the 4e preview at D&D Experience and they wanted us to get a good handle on how to run 4e properly and proper adventure design for when we'd eventually have to write LFR adventures.

Basically, were told that 4e was designed to have 3 or 4 encounters in a day. It wasn't recommended to write any adventure where the PCs fought less than that during a day(and was actually a rule for LFR adventure writing. No less than 2 combat encounters, preferably on the same day or there would be no challenge) since there wouldn't be enough damage to cause the attrition necessary to threaten the PCs. You could use more powerful encounters but since level directly affected the enemies defenses, bonuses to hit, damage, and hitpoints at the same time that adding levels added exponential difficulty. After about 5-7 levels you will slaughter the PCs. Though, they were surprised at just how many levels you could add without killing the entire party but were still testing internally to see how high you could go safely. You also couldn't have too many more encounters in a day because healing surges would limit the PCs survivability.

The idea was that each adventuring day consisted of 3-4 encounters with a number of monsters equal to the number of players whose levels were within 5 of the PCs. And after each encounter they got a short rest. This was absolutely vital to playing 4e and making it fun. They pointed out that the preview adventure that we were running didn't have logical points for short rests and the monsters were in rooms that were 30 feet away from the other monsters but we were absolutely not supposed to have 2 encounters attack the PCs at once, because it would be a TPK for sure. We were also supposed to give the PCs five minutes of time to rest between encounters even though it made sense that the next encounter might attack them while they were resting because the game was designed assuming encounter powers were available every encounter.
 

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