From R&C: Fighters & Armor

Midknightsun said:
Besides the fact that I can't even think of any historical archetypical warriors who could manage this complete armed omnivorization

Samurai.

But then, we don't need to go to history since it is a fantasy game. Besides, even if the point is that there shouldn't be a class that allows a single character to be good at every combat style, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a fighting class that allows for the options of producing a character that is exceptionally skilled at fighting with any of the types of combat styles presented in the rules. PrCs aside, there wasn't a combat style that the fighter couldn't do better than another class, more consistently, and that is the way it should be.
 

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Hella_Tellah said:
You're looking for a classless system, then. D&D classes have a certain amount of fluff tied to them, some of which is locked in with thematic abilities. In 3rd edition's core books, you can't play a fast-moving character that isn't either a raging berserker or a mystic, unarmed martial artist. You can't find traps without also using dirty tricks and stealth in combat. Suck it up, it's a class-based system.
Earthdawn is a class-based system, and it has an Archer class.
 

D.Shaffer said:
Here's where the disconnect seems to be. Why does the archer have to be a fighter? If you can build a better archer by taking the ranger, why not build it as a ranger IF the 4th ed ranger has all the woodsman stuff filed off or tucked into a talent tree you arent forced to take?
It's a pretty big if there.
 

Reynard said:
Samurai.

But then, we don't need to go to history since it is a fantasy game. Besides, even if the point is that there shouldn't be a class that allows a single character to be good at every combat style, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a fighting class that allows for the options of producing a character that is exceptionally skilled at fighting with any of the types of combat styles presented in the rules. PrCs aside, there wasn't a combat style that the fighter couldn't do better than another class, more consistently, and that is the way it should be.

Luckily for all concerned, there probably will be (a few) fighting class(es) that allow for the options of producing characters that are exceptionally skilled at fighting with any of the types of combat styles presented in the rules.

Sure, some of them have different names, but with Saga Fourth Edition as my witness, they do a pretty good job of exposing character customization, which is, I think, the name of the game.

I think that this point has already been made on the thread, though, which makes me think that I'm not understanding your complaint correctly. Perhaps it's that you want a single class to be general, but focusable into any niche? Why is that better than a small set of classes which, together, cover the same niches?

Rose by any other name, &c &c.
 

A lot of what people have said in this thread is perplexing me, so maybe I should state a few of my basic assumptions about 4E, based on the things I've read mostly on this very site, before I get into the points I want to make. Or, maybe I should say the other points I want to make.

Assumption 1: 4e will follow a new paradigm of class balance. Based on what the designers themselves have said, class balance is in-combat balance, and they want to maintain balance across all thirty levels instead of having "power curves" like in previous editions.

Assumption 2: Class roles are a good thing. Apparently, this is a controversial statement, but honestly, I don't see the point of playing a class-based RPG at all unless there's a reason to have a group made up of different classes. Classes need to include specialties and restrictions, the specialties make you useful to the group and the restrictions make the group useful to you. The new concept of capital-R Roles is a reflection of the new focus of in-combat balance reigning supreme. A class should always have a clear-cut way of contributing to the success of the group, and the player should be warned ahead of time what the designers were expecting it to be when they wrote it.

Assumption 3: The designers are aware of and trying to avoid the obvious pitfall of Roles being too restrictive. MMO's were offered as a specific example of what they wanted NOT to do, in the particular example of "tanking" not being fun in the context of a tabletop RPG, and more generally in that they don't want classes to feel limited by their roles. Every class will be able to do significant damage and still contribute according to their Role, in theory.

Assumption 4: The designers will make mistakes. 4E will not be perfect, in fact it will even have some of the same boneheaded little bugs that every game has. Expecting perfection is just as naive as expecting total incompetence.


Okay, now that this post is already too long I can start talking about why I originally clicked the repy button. :)

I think there's a lot of different ideas of what "Fighter" means, and unless people suddenly become capable of all agreeing on every feature of a class that nobody's seen yet, it's just going to keep going around and around, so why are people being so hard on each other?

More interestingly, I seem to mostly see interpretations of the "Defender" Role that are very different from my own. Quite a few people seem to assume that a defender will only be good at standing near the squishies and keeping them from dying, and a fighter who runs over to the enemies and starts busting heads will be acting outside of their class role. This is not the impression that I get from reading the previews, playtests, and other designer comments.

My impression, and of course I could be wrong, is that mechanically a defender is someone who takes a small portion of the battlemap (i.e. wherever they're standing) and exerts a great deal of control over it. This control is exerted by being able to dish out large amounts of nasty badness on anything in melee range and by being very hard to kill. Therefore, wherever your defender is standing is a 3-by-3 block of YOUR territory. Groups can use this block defensively, by using it to block access to more vulnerable party members, or strategically, by placing it at chokepoints or flanking positions, or aggressively, using the defender like a grenade: charge into an area of thickly packed enemies, kill (or bullrush or whatever) them all, and suddenly you've harmed your enemy and captured enemy territory, assuming you're good at the "being really hard to kill" part of the Role.

Now, this is more complicated than is really communicated by just the word "Defender" but it does seem (to me) to be what they're doing. My point is all these options would still be fulfilling the defender role of staking out a little place and being king of the mountain, and are useful to the group in different ways. The shield and armor talents boost the "not dying" aspect of the role, the big weapons boost the "open a can of melee whoopass" part, and the control talents would give the fighter more options than melee damage in exerting control over their little patch of ground, probably like tripping, bullrushing, or some of the things the Knight class could do like render ground that's within their reach "difficult terrain" for the purposes of movement.

As for bows, well, there's no reason that fighters wouldn't be able to use bows, but I would consider it a grave mistake to make them as good at it as the class designed to specialize in ranged combat. Maybe you don't want to call the class that fulfills the defender role with armor, athleticism and melee skill a fighter, but that's a different argument to have and a moot point if we're talking about 4E. So what's the problem? I just don't get it.
 

Lackhand said:
I think that this point has already been made on the thread, though, which makes me think that I'm not understanding your complaint correctly. Perhaps it's that you want a single class to be general, but focusable into any niche? Why is that better than a small set of classes which, together, cover the same niches?
.

Ignoring all the discussion already in this thread, I can come up with easy reason for having one class that handles all the weapon stuff.

Design space.

There are (apparently) 8 classes in the PH. Just 8. In theory, the WotC people claim that *eventually* the classes that aren't eaten and have their stuff taken will find there way into later PHs. Fine. But that seems a good reason not to overlap the small number of classes that are available in the first book.

So, instead of :
Weapons Guy Melee
Weapons Guy Woodsy and
(small-) Weapons Guy Skills

you could have:
Weapons Guy
Skills Guy (who can do Woodsy things if you build him that way)
and a whole 'nother class that isn't horning into the same territory. Like Shapeshifters or Druids or Psions or Sorcerers or Swordmages or Bards or one of the other 50-11 base classes that have been or could be.

But instead we've got classes straightjacketed by weapon specializations that could just easily be feats, that are all struggling with the same schtick: I do something fancy with a weapon, and maybe something else, when I'm not in combat. (Except possibly the poor fighter. Again).

And yeah, you can make the same argument for the spellcasters. And yeah, there are a lot of other overlaps in the PH classes. Weird, that they didn't stake out more territory, isn't it?

Melee Guy Tan
Melee Guy Grey
Melee Guy White
Ranged Guy Green (or possibly just Tan)
Magic Guy White (who has a bit of Tactical guy)
Magic Guy Tan
Magic Guy Grey
Tactical Guy Tan (who has a bit of Melee)
 

It is clear, isn't it?

D&D is evolving not as a role playing game but as a tactical board combat game. Eventually D&D's present and future is a board game with open scope boards (see tactical maps, miniatures and the like) rather a narrative role playing game-
besides the virtual game table is just about this: boards and minis.

As I tried to post above it is a matter of gaming taste: more drammatic or more action orientated.

As far as the question about combining a tactical board game and a role playing game: well it seems for D&D it is not the best gaming design: people will get a kind of mixed bag of gaming fun, one that will be asking for more-
Hence 4th Ed's sharper focus on tactical board playing balance to clear things even more out.

So what is d&d in regards to what is out there in the market right now? It is an open-board game, that is a board game whith no limited maps, where each player controls one character and identifies with him and his progress on the board.
It capitalizes on a slightly different feeling than the one of other board games where each player may control more in numbers, due to the slightly different perspective from the player's POV.

D&D 4th Ed will be a game like an advanced type of Warhammer Quest - done better, with better rules and also capitalizing on d&d popularity.

Who knows, now that I am thinking about it, random virtual minis might indeed make sense for D&D now. I was thinking about them impossible but it is not really that unreasonable from their perspective.
 

Voss said:
Oh, come on. There isn't any reason to expect this edition will be different in that regard than any of the others. If you can't compete at the top ranks, you might as well not bother. You auto-fail against anyone who can.
How do you auto-fail at archery? If the fighter and the ranger are both using bows against their opponents, the ranger will likely get more shots off, maybe hit a bit more often, and cause some more damage.

But the fighter is still shooting, hitting, and causing damage. You're saying that because he's not causing as much damage as the ranger, that he's "auto-failing"? Please explain.

And try to be a little more dismissive this time.
 

Another thing to realize is that the fighter will generally be best in melee (with most weapons), and will probably be second-best with bows, second-best with daggers, and second-best with any other weapon that another class happens to be best with.
 

sidonunspa said:
True, but that’s not “every warrior” I find that most people who play Fighters want to be the guy that charges into combat to unleash carnage upon their opponents.

Think Brad Pitt in Troy, was he "protecting" anyone? No, he was killing anyone who was in his way.

Look at “300”, Mad Martigan, all the fighter types in the Lord of the Rings movies.

I never looked at them and thought, wow look how they are protecting the guys in the back….

Its MMO tactics brought into RPGs

Did you watch the movies?

Did you not see Boromir standing in front of the hobbits hacking down every orc that tried to go past him to get to them? He protected Merry and Pippin by killing everyone! By not letting the orcs by him, by making himself the more deadly opponent, the one they needed to focus on. That sounds like the ideal of the 4E fighter - he doesn't taunt, he doesn't magically shield others, and he doesn't trick someone into attacking him: he hacks down anyone who tried to get by him to the person he is protecting, halting their progress and making them realize if they aren't paying attention to him, they will die.

Did not Eowynn do the same thing by coming between the witch king and her uncle?

Mad Martigan protected Willow. He stood in front and killed everyone who tried get by him. He then ran around and led them into traps and ambushes, and as he killed them, they all kept focusing on him and not on Willow and the baby.

Even the guys in 300. The entire point of the phalax fighting style was to protect the person next to you! There is an entire scene in the movie where this is explained, which results in the hunch0back not being able to join them because he physically is incapable of protecting the man next to him.

In any move in which someone says "Get behind me!" to someone and then fights the foe himself, that person has just played the part of the defender. Ripley does it in Aliens when she fights the Queen with the powerloader! The Queen could have kept going after Newt (she was right there!) but Ripley would have layed some serious pain on the Queen while it ignored her for Newt.

I think both the TWH and the SnB fighter will be able defenders. The difference is the SnB is set to survive the attacks and slowly wear down his opponent while the THF quickly hacks through all resistance (cause if he doesn't get them down quickly, they'll take him down because he lacks the protection of the shield). Both can survive equally well, they just have different mentalities about how to do so.

If you want to rush into the carnage and hack away, you will be free to do so. Just know that everyone will look at you and say "this guy needs to go down first! Once's he's gone, the rest will be easy pickings!" While they are all attacking you, you are defending everyone else behind you.

That is what it means to be the defender and it is a classic role in fiction. There is always the person who stands up and takes on the opponent, defending someone from harm. Now there is a way to play one.
 

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