Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
You'll enjoy what's coming then. Mostly.
GAME OF THRONES #3: Breaker of Chains ACT 42 Chapter 4-2014
You'll enjoy what's coming then. Mostly.
Ahnehnois
First Post
I don't doubt it.
DrunkonDuty
he/him
"... there was an abundance of reason for him to do it. Him finally taking out his pent-up anger and frustration seemed in-character to me."
We will have to disagree about this. Yes, Jaime is a violent man. He's a bloody killer. I can see him taking out his frustration in a fight if he gets the chance. But even above being a killer one thing that has been a part of the Jamie character since day 1 is that he loves Cersei above all others, even himself. He would not attack her. If he had killed her instead I would be just as disappointed in the story for the same reason as him raping her. It doesn't fit the character.
And yes, Jaime's story is one of redemption. Will he make it? Don't know. Most likely, if he gets close, he'll die because, hey, this is Game of Thrones. This is what we tune in for. Jaime falling again would also be fine - the chance of failure is part of the drama. But failing in this particular fashion... It makes no sense. The only reason I can see for it is some hack of a producer/studio exec saying "we need to sex this story arc up."
(There's a whole pile of essays as to the sexual political implications of the rape. But I shall avoid commenting on drama that has yet to play out.)
****
On the note of Oberyn. Yes, he is killing it. The actor, Pedro Pascal, is brilliant. I loved his chat with Cersei and Tywin at the wedding.
We will have to disagree about this. Yes, Jaime is a violent man. He's a bloody killer. I can see him taking out his frustration in a fight if he gets the chance. But even above being a killer one thing that has been a part of the Jamie character since day 1 is that he loves Cersei above all others, even himself. He would not attack her. If he had killed her instead I would be just as disappointed in the story for the same reason as him raping her. It doesn't fit the character.
And yes, Jaime's story is one of redemption. Will he make it? Don't know. Most likely, if he gets close, he'll die because, hey, this is Game of Thrones. This is what we tune in for. Jaime falling again would also be fine - the chance of failure is part of the drama. But failing in this particular fashion... It makes no sense. The only reason I can see for it is some hack of a producer/studio exec saying "we need to sex this story arc up."
(There's a whole pile of essays as to the sexual political implications of the rape. But I shall avoid commenting on drama that has yet to play out.)
****
On the note of Oberyn. Yes, he is killing it. The actor, Pedro Pascal, is brilliant. I loved his chat with Cersei and Tywin at the wedding.
Homicidal_Squirrel
Adventurer
I read an interview with Martin about the rape. He didn't write this episode, and the scene in the book is different. [sblock=Book spoliers that don't really matter because this part has already passed, but you never know. There might be someone who will get upset about it, so...]Martin suggests that part of the reason for the change in the show was due to the differing timelines between the book and the show. In the show, Jaimie has been back for a few weeks, while in the book he has just returned. The bitterness between Cercei and Jaimie hasn't developed in the book. In the show, Cercei has become very cold towards Jaimie. In order to keep the sex scene with Joffrey's body there, the writers had to do something. I guess they thought this would do.[/sblock]
Ahnehnois
First Post
I don't see anything redemptive about Jaime at all. He only ever looked good in comparison to the rest of his family, and because he couldn't hurt anyone while he was in chains. I can't say that I ever saw his relationship with his sister as genuine love, more selfishness and desperation (in that the Lannisters are such psychopaths that the only people they can understand and relate to are each other).
And I don't think that all his tribulations were character building. When people come through those things, they are traumatized. Soldiers come back from war with PTSD and amputations, and the military has a big rape problem. These two things are not unconnected. It's an ugly truth, but I don't see it as being character assassination to say that Jaime is pretty much soulless at this point.
And frankly, two major things happened in that scene. One was Cersei putting out a hit on their brother. The other was Jaime's sexual aggression. Of those two things, the former is clearly much worse. Indeed, there are many, many worse things on this show than a misbegotten relationship degenerating into abuse. I'd argue that Jaime's worst moment was trying to assassinate Ned Stark and slaughtering other innocents in the process; this doesn't even come close.
And I don't think that all his tribulations were character building. When people come through those things, they are traumatized. Soldiers come back from war with PTSD and amputations, and the military has a big rape problem. These two things are not unconnected. It's an ugly truth, but I don't see it as being character assassination to say that Jaime is pretty much soulless at this point.
And frankly, two major things happened in that scene. One was Cersei putting out a hit on their brother. The other was Jaime's sexual aggression. Of those two things, the former is clearly much worse. Indeed, there are many, many worse things on this show than a misbegotten relationship degenerating into abuse. I'd argue that Jaime's worst moment was trying to assassinate Ned Stark and slaughtering other innocents in the process; this doesn't even come close.
DrunkonDuty
he/him
Mmmm. I thought the reasoning behind writing it this way would be something like this. Frankly I think other ways could have been found. But hey, they aren't paying me to write the screen play. Or cut the show (mores the pity.)
Let's hope they can write themselves out of this without making light of the rape.
Let's hope they can write themselves out of this without making light of the rape.
DrunkonDuty
he/him
@ Ahnehnois
Well the books make it clear that Jaime truly loves his sister. I think there's hints of that in the show, but maybe not enough for someone who hasn't read the books to pick up on them. (I have no idea if you've read them or not, it's merely a general statement.) I agree that Jaime is pretty far gone as a human being. But this isn't to say he's beyond redemption. It just means he has a long way to go. A hell of a long way. Brienne might get him there.
I admit I hadn't thought about the connections between PTSD and rape. But I do see your point. And therefore I can see a case being made for Jamie's actions being right. (In terms of being true to his character development ONLY. Obviously not the moral implications which are horrible.) I remain to be convinced of this as yet; I shall have to wait until the drama plays itself out.
To be honest I don't think of any of the Lannisters as psychopaths. Bad people. Very, very bad people. But in all their cases there's some redeeming features and believable reasons for how they came to be who they are. Again the show doesn't make the reasons as clear as the books do. Although I think the show does a good job of showing us how Cersei has come to be where she is. Tyrion's background is made pretty obvious too. Less so for Tywin and Jamie but hints are still there.
Well the books make it clear that Jaime truly loves his sister. I think there's hints of that in the show, but maybe not enough for someone who hasn't read the books to pick up on them. (I have no idea if you've read them or not, it's merely a general statement.) I agree that Jaime is pretty far gone as a human being. But this isn't to say he's beyond redemption. It just means he has a long way to go. A hell of a long way. Brienne might get him there.
I admit I hadn't thought about the connections between PTSD and rape. But I do see your point. And therefore I can see a case being made for Jamie's actions being right. (In terms of being true to his character development ONLY. Obviously not the moral implications which are horrible.) I remain to be convinced of this as yet; I shall have to wait until the drama plays itself out.
To be honest I don't think of any of the Lannisters as psychopaths. Bad people. Very, very bad people. But in all their cases there's some redeeming features and believable reasons for how they came to be who they are. Again the show doesn't make the reasons as clear as the books do. Although I think the show does a good job of showing us how Cersei has come to be where she is. Tyrion's background is made pretty obvious too. Less so for Tywin and Jamie but hints are still there.
Homicidal_Squirrel
Adventurer
There are very few truly psychotic characters in GoT. Most of the characters have both good and bad qualities. They vary in degree of good and bad, but I think that's what makes the characters interesting. Jaime, as vile as he is, has done some good things.
[video=youtube;JZ6fhp483YU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ6fhp483YU[/video]
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DrunkonDuty
he/him
Yep, that's the appeal of Game of Thrones in a nutshell - the characters, good and bad, have layers and complexities.
Ahnehnois
First Post
That may be true from the books; there are always changes in adaptations and it seems like this is an area where they may have subtly shifted things.
I did get the sense that Brienne was supposed to be sort of his way out. But he didn't want it. He stuck with his sister, who besides being his sister is a horrible person. He still wants to be accepted by his father too. Those inextricable relationships seem like they'll be the end of him, as both of those people are using him to serve their own ends.
To me, the scene where he first gets back and sees Cersei and she rejects him brought up analogous real-world scenes that I've seen. He's a man who's waited a long time for that moment. He probably was imagining it the entire time he was chained up; it probably it what got him through his ordeal. He was banking on their reunion being the thing that healed all the pain. To me, there's been a simmering rage beneath his cool exterior ever since then.
As is the case with most psychopaths. Psychopathy is a personality trait; there are degrees. It also runs in families, and it seems to me that the message the show is sending is that Joffrey is what happens when you combine two people with antisocial tendencies: you get someone twice as bad.
Many of the worst people we think of being associated with that word went through childhood trauma. There's also increasing evidence that a degree of psychopathy is very useful in getting to the highest levels of the business world; we're not just talking about violent criminals. To me, the whole Lannister family exhibits various degrees of it (and, indeed, so do all the power players in King's Landing); and there are things that explain why but they don't negate that truth.
In Jaime's case it feels to me like his most moral act was killing the old Targaryen king. It's clear that he feels he did it not for selfish reasons to advance his own family, but because the king was a horrible person. To him, it was worth murdering someone and breaking his knight's oath for the greater good. But no one else saw it that way; even his own family doesn't seem to think much of him once he's done such a dishonorable thing. To me, the lesson he learned from that is that no good deed goes unpunished, and he feels very jaded and spiteful throughout the series.
I also suspect that he sees the parallels between the old king and the new one lying in front of him; and despite that king being his son I don't think he is as blindly in love with him as Cersei is. He's probably okay with Joffrey being dead and realizes that the king was a monstrous one, and the fact that Cersei seems to love her tyrant son more than either of her less evil brothers (as evidenced by asking one to kill the other over this) is probably eating him up inside. Jaime may have been the best of all of his family at one point, but I think the show has amply established what's rotting him inside.
