Gay Rights

[Umbran]

Regardless, this is a thread about children rejoicing because their parents let them sit at the table with the big kids...

Ladies and gentlemen...

The normal rules of civility hold in politics threads. Calling people children for having an opinion that differs from yours? Not civil. Don't do it.

 

[Zaukrie]

For 2000 years we were told divorce was a sin. It was against the law in much of the west. Then, it wasn't. I don't hear many calling for that to be reversed. Same is now happening with marriage.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Simply for the sake of perspective, I would like to remind everyone that not all members of a religion adhere to official opinions of their religious leaders.

I, for example, am Catholic, and I celebrate the Supreme Court's holding on same-sex marriage. Religious institutions are administered by people, and people (even the best of us) are flawed and make mistakes. I have been very happy to see Pope Francis' softening of the church's objection to homosexuality, including when he said the following, "if someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge."

That sentiment from the pope summed up how I have felt about gays (and about people in general if you cut the gay part out) for decades, despite other popes and bishops having taken hard-line stances against homosexuality.

FWIW, Pope Francis has been making a lot of enemies in the American Conserve-o-verse.

From his liberal-for-a-Catholic stance on homosexuality to his harping on about global warming and human stewardship to his rather continuous theme of human greed being one of the great evils of our day, he's making the recent American Catholic alliance with fundamentalist Protestant denominations a little more tenuous than it was a pope or two ago.

Personally, as a student of religion and culture, this has been really fascinating to watch.

 

[Ryujin]

FWIW, Pope Francis has been making a lot of enemies in the American Conserve-o-verse.

From his liberal-for-a-Catholic stance on homosexuality to his harping on about global warming and human stewardship to his rather continuous theme of human greed being one of the great evils of our day, he's making the recent American Catholic alliance with fundamentalist Protestant denominations a little more tenuous than it was a pope or two ago.

Personally, as a student of religion and culture, this has been really fascinating to watch.

A rather interesting turn-around from the days when the American Catholic Church was trying to reclaim its position and the days of sandal wearing, guitar playing priests. no?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, as a student of religion and culture, this has been really fascinating to watch.

Imagine what it's like for a Catholic like me!

I mean, I can't say he and I are in complete agreement, but he is saying many things I have.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A rather interesting turn-around from the days when the American Catholic Church was trying to reclaim its position and the days of sandal wearing, guitar playing priests. no?

I'm tellin' ya, everything changed after Vatican II and the masses being said in English.

Imagine what it's like for a Catholic like me!

I mean, I can't say he and I are in complete agreement, but he is saying many things I have.

I think it's interesting that, broadly speaking, American Catholics kind of regard the pope more like an advisor on matters of religion rather than an authority. Like, JPII saying birth control is bad didn't stop most American Catholics from saying "no it isn't" and using it anyway.

I think Francis's stuff on wealth and poverty is interesting, because that does kind of contradict the Protestant Ethic / Divine Right of Kings / Prosperity Gospel dominant cultural narrative in the US (in a way that highlights some significant divides between Catholicism, which tends to believe that poverty is an abuse of the powerful, and American Protestantism, which is a lot more Calvinist), but there have been a lot of chinks in that armor globally since 2008. It'll be interesting to see if the economically progressive wing of American Catholics gets stirred up again, or if this expands the gulf between what happens in the US and what happens in Rome and most of the rest of the Catholic world.

As far as gay rights specifically goes, I like that the Pope's take on Peter's Vision seems to be in line with Peter's own take on it. It's almost a strength of Catholicism at the moment that it has one dude who sort of sets the conversation for everyone - it can adapt and change, even if some segments offer a bit of resistance. Some strains of fundamental Protestantism seem to be still stuck in the 1800's, though, and it's harder to set the conversation when there's not one guy, but a whole room full of very loud people insisting that they have it right and that you need to listen to them. Protestantism (and Islam, though in a different context) can be a lot like that sometimes.

Like, I don't know that Catholics have any less actual disagreement, but it's not like most folks who call themselves Catholic would say the Pope is a sinner who is going to hell for his wrong beliefs, even if they disagreed with him. They'll at least be like "he makes some good points, but..."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The American Catholic Church & its flock tends to be a LOT more liberal than anywhere else in the world.

And it wasn't so much Francis' speeches that busted open the split between us and the Protestants- it was the 2012 election. As I have repeatedly pointed out to more conservative Catholics of my acquaintance (like my Mom & her best bud), despite the problems our clergy has with Obama and the Democrats, our Bishops and nuns composed and published a condemnation of the Rommey/Ryan budget as- and I quote- "unchristian." That's a pretty potent broadside.

(Really, Ryan- how DOES one reconcile the philosophy of Ayn Rand with that of Christianity?)

 

[MechaPilot]

(Really, Ryan- how DOES one reconcile the philosophy of Ayn Rand with that of Christianity?)

Maybe by using an earlier version of Christianity that allow for buying indulgences.

"I got mine, so screw you" works pretty well with Christendom if you can then turn around and give the church a cut to reserve some cloud space for you.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Maybe by using an earlier version of Christianity that allow for buying indulgences.

"I got mine, so screw you" works pretty well with Christendom if you can then turn around and give the church a cut to reserve some cloud space for you.

[video=youtube;jgWUi-ozMAU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgWUi-ozMAU&sns=em[/video]

 

[Ryujin]

(Really, Ryan- how DOES one reconcile the philosophy of Ayn Rand with that of Christianity?)

By thinking that "Thou shalt not..." meant everyone else.