Gay Rights

[Dire Bare]

It's probably best that they don't; barbecuing is racist.

I know you are trying to be humorous (well, I assume) . . . but you do realize that's not what the article actually states, right?

 

[Alzrius]

I know you are trying to be humorous (well, I assume) . . . but you do realize that's not what the article actually states, right?

Poe's Law claims another victim!

 

[Dire Bare]

Poe's Law claims another victim!

Had to look up "Poe's Law" . . . yep!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Polygamous marriages probably won't get legalized in the USA. They raise too many extremely knotty legal issues.

There's also some knotty moral issues.

Like, sure, you can be pretty confident that the west coast hippie love commune or whatever is all consensual and agreeable, but the origins of the outlaw of the practice in the US are in abuse, coercion, child-brides and other severely problematic practices of the early (and much more cult-y) Mormon church. Of course, one might persuasively argue that forbidding polygamy to prevent abuse like that is kind of a blunt instrument (like prohibition to prevent drunken brawls, it kind of works, but there's a lot of fine stuff it also outlaws and a lot of problematic stuff it doesn't outlaw).

It would seem to me that in the long run the only positions the state can take on marriage that are consistent with the Constitution would include either "we support everything any group of consenting adults wants to call marriage" or "the state isn't in the business of establishing what is or is not marriage," and both of those positions leave the door open for Adam & Steve, and also Bob & Joanne & Stacey & Jackie.

The independent nuclear family is kind of a weird product of post-industrial economics and Western cultural values, anyway - it's not really sustainable, and its cracks, by now, are pretty evident.

I've taught my children that public displays of affection beyond a closed-mouth kiss can be considered low-class and rude/offensive to others. This is for their benefit regarding how they will go along in the rest of their lives until adulthood, where the decisions that they will make will reflect upon them.

It strikes me that you're protecting them from a judgement that is certainly not universal. Like, perhaps in your hometown, that is something that is considered low-class or rude/offensive, but if your children find themselves in, I dunno, Saudi Arabia at some point in their lives, then even the display of affection that includes a closed-mouth kiss could be considered low-class or rude/offensive to others, and if they find themselves in the aforementioned hippie love commune, refusing to go further than a closed-mouth kiss could be considered cold and rude/offensive to others.

Why not teach them something that will be equally to their benefit, but is more generally applicable, like "act like others around you, if you don't want to stand out?"

And in that case, if one of your children finds themselves at a gay pride parade, they can let their freak flag fly, acting like the others around them in a celebration of their sexuality as something that makes them stand out, but maybe if they're at home, they'll defer to your own town's standards of what is acceptable...unless they're trying to stand out, of course.

 

[painted_klown]

I just read every single post in this thread. Interesting topic, to be sure.

I will state up front that I am a Pentecostal Christian. Making that statement to most people (in person) elicits gasps...No, I am not a "holy roller" or snake handler, or other such thing. I have also been to several different Pentecostal churches in the region (local thing the pastors like to do) and have never seen such things go on.

Having said that, here is the views on homosexuality that was preached from the pulpit, and that I agree with. As you can guess, I am going to approach this from my personal religious belief.

The pastor at my church openly invited ALL homosexuals/gays to attend our church. He also encouraged all of us to embrace the gay community as Christians should. No, he did NOT want the gay community to come there so he could "convert" them, nor to preach an anti-gay message to them. It was merely so that they would know that not all Christian organizations hate gays. It was to let the gay community know that we Christians love them, and we accept them for who they are, and where they are at in life...just like everyone else.

What saddens me (as a Christian) is that many people seem to feel that Westboro represents Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe in God, and I do NOT believe that God hates gay people. God does not hate anybody, He loves ALL people the same. I also do not believe that being gay means you're going to hell. That is not for me to decide, nor is it my judgement call.

I do believe in the (oft quoted ITT) sentiment of "Love the sinner, hate the sin", but that statement isn't necessarily talking about gay people, or ANY particular person/group, for that matter. It simply means that we should love one another, and embrace them for who they are. That person could be a murderer, thief, gay, straight, junkie, compulsive gambler, look different from the norm (I am fat, have a mohawk haircut, and ride a motorcycle for example), etc. Also note that I am NOT calling anyone ITT a "sinner" or any other name.

The point is, that as Christians, we strive to be more like Jesus Christ. Jesus did not teach hate, nor did He publicly chastise people. In fact, He was "controversial" for associating with prostitutes!!! I don't recall any time in the Bible that Jesus scolded the people He came across (except for those claiming to be Christians and were preaching a false doctrine, being hypocrites, etc). Instead, He embraced and loved them. I feel as Christians, "we" could do a better job of this (as a community).

I will state to all who read this: weather you're gay, straight, transgender, bi-sexual, lesbian, unsure, curious, etc. that "God loves you for who you are, and so do I".

I am aware that publicly admitting you're a Christian will sometimes get you labeled has a "hate monger" or "bigot" or "racist" or whatever, but please know that these too are negative stereotypes, ones that get placed on Christians, and ones that simply are not true.

For the non-Christians ITT, I know that you do not believe in God, and that is your decision, but please do not think that because I do believe in God, that it makes me "hate" a particular group of people simply for being.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It was to let the gay community know that we Christians love them, and we accept them for who they are, and where they are at in life...just like everyone else.

What saddens me (as a Christian) is that many people seem to feel that Westboro represents Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe in God, and I do NOT believe that God hates gay people. God does not hate anybody, He loves ALL people the same. I also do not believe that being gay means you're going to hell. That is not for me to decide, nor is it my judgement call.

It's a good message.

I'm a big fan of Acts 10:28 - "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

For the other big monotheisms, Judaism and Islam, it can be more difficult to get a good holy-book-quote to reinforce that idea of acceptance. It's actually kind of interesting to see the divergence here - many corners of Islam are at *least* as anti-gay as some of the more hard-line Christian movements (and have been more successful in terms of actual legal laws and punishments for it in many countries), but Judaism has a more mixed pattern of prohibition in practice (with many strains being quite accepting, others not so much). Both come from a place where their traditional authorities pretty clearly condemn it, and sometimes quite harshly (the death penalty is thrown around a lot). So it's curious to see a continuum of acceptance - fairly strong in Judaism despite the clear prohibition, spotty but clear in Christianity of most stripes despite some pretty clear commandments to accept, to a little weak in Islam with more folks there following in line with the clear prohibition. I bet there's some interesting sociological/political things you could tease out of those distinctions.

For the non-Christians ITT, I know that you do not believe in God, and that is your decision, but please do not think that because I do believe in God, that it makes me "hate" a particular group of people simply for being.

I think there's some....very vocal Christians who get a lot of screen time and who would very much like everyone to imagine that because you believe in god, you can't accept homosexual love. But perhaps part of the reason they get a lot of screen time is because they're vocal and weird.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I just read every single post in this thread. Interesting topic, to be sure.

I will state up front that I am a Pentecostal Christian. Making that statement to most people (in person) elicits gasps...No, I am not a "holy roller" or snake handler, or other such thing. I have also been to several different Pentecostal churches in the region (local thing the pastors like to do) and have never seen such things go on.

Having said that, here is the views on homosexuality that was preached from the pulpit, and that I agree with. As you can guess, I am going to approach this from my personal religious belief.

The pastor at my church openly invited ALL homosexuals/gays to attend our church. He also encouraged all of us to embrace the gay community as Christians should. No, he did NOT want the gay community to come there so he could "convert" them, nor to preach an anti-gay message to them. It was merely so that they would know that not all Christian organizations hate gays. It was to let the gay community know that we Christians love them, and we accept them for who they are, and where they are at in life...just like everyone else.

What saddens me (as a Christian) is that many people seem to feel that Westboro represents Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Sorry, but no. Just about everyone knows that the Westboro Baptist Church are a creepy cult who shouldn't be trusted with pens, signs, flags, or sharp implements. And no one thinks they represent Christians. Indeed the only time I ever see people claim anything about the Westboro Baptist Church representing Christians it's the claim that non-Christians think that the Westboro Baptist Church are other than a bunch right on the fringe. This, in short, is a deflection used by Christians so they don't have to check whether they need to get their own house in order.

So who do people think does represent Christians? In short the people who represent Christians.

The biggest group of Christians in the world are the Roman Catholic Church - who claim that homosexuality is an inclination which is objectively disordered. Any time there is a fight for marriage equality (and most other gay rights) the Roman Catholic Church is right there opposing it. There are many good things that can be said about Francis 1 - a lack of homophobia is not on the list.

The largest Christian denomination in the UK is the Church of England. Which was leading the fight against gay rights in the House of Lords (9/14 bishops voted for a wrecking amendment to prevent gay marriage, the rest abstained). The Church of England a while back decided that being a celibate gay man was enough to rule someone out for becoming a Bishop - and bans blessing same sex partnerships (as well as actual same sex marriages). The leader of the Church of England (and the Anglican Communion as a whole, which includes the Episcopalians) is Archbishop Justin Welby. Despite knowing that his view on gay marriage is akin to racism, he was one of those actively opposing equal rights.

The largest Christian denomination in the US other than the Roman Catholic Church is the Southern Baptist Convention. Actively homophobic, actively opposed to Gay Marriage, they institutionally condemn Churches where the pastor's kid is gay and the pastor doesn't throw them out. They've only very recently (i.e. within the past year) changed their official position on the quack brainwashing that is reparative therapy. To say they are institutionally homophobic is putting it mildly.

So that's the world's largest denomination, the largest denomination in the UK, and the largest non-Catholic denomination in the US all preaching homophobia and actively opposing equal rights. And you're a Pentecostal? The largest Pentecostal denomination is the Assemblies of God, and their position is that it's OK to be gay as long as you never sleep with anyone you love. Hardly a loving position. They, of course, also oppose equal rights.

Westboro Baptist Church has almost nothing to do with the reason most people think the people who represent Christianity are homophobes. The largest Christian churches are all homophobic and leading the fights against equal rights. Yes, some of the smaller ones (especially the Quakers) are actively fighting for equal rights. But when it comes to representing Christianity, this is very much a minority position.

Christianity isn't being judged based on Westboro turning up and trying to fly Irish flags upside down. People take the official position of Christianity as being that of the people Christians empower to speak for them on matters of Christianity. And that, for just about every major denomination, is homophobic.

I am aware that publicly admitting you're a Christian will sometimes get you labeled has a "hate monger" or "bigot" or "racist" or whatever, but please know that these too are negative stereotypes, ones that get placed on Christians, and ones that simply are not true.

For the non-Christians ITT, I know that you do not believe in God, and that is your decision, but please do not think that because I do believe in God, that it makes me "hate" a particular group of people simply for being.

I don't think that you personally hate people simply for being. On the other hand I do think that you have been trying to use Westboro to deflect criticism that should go to just about every major group of Christians and that this demonstrates you are blinkered.

 

[Ryujin]

Given the number of lawyers who are part of the Westboro Baptist Church I would tend to say that their prime tenets more involve litigation, than ascension

 

[Neonchameleon]

Given the number of lawyers who are part of the Westboro Baptist Church I would tend to say that their prime tenets more involve litigation, than ascension

No kidding. They are more of a mix of a weird dysfunctonal family with a shared hobby and legal trolls who try to provoke people into violence so they can sue them than even a cult. (Almost everyone in Westboro Baptist is related to the late Fred Phelps, although there is a second small family in there and one unrelated person).

 

[Umbran]

The leader of the Church of England (and the Anglican Communion as a whole, which includes the Episcopalians) is Archbishop Justin Welby. Despite knowing that his view on gay marriage is akin to racism, he was one of those actively opposing equal rights.

It is perhaps important and interesting to note, though, that the US branch of the Episcopalians voted to *allow* gay marriages days after the recent Supreme Court ruling.