D&D General Gen Con, Daisy, Sleeping in the Lobby and All That

[Gradine]

What's your policy on random people showing up to take advantage of the free continental breakfast?

We didn't have Continental Breakfast (we were attached to a casino with a bunch of restaurants in it); knowing our policies we'd be required to contact security if we noticed it, and knowing myself and many of my employees we would be extremely diligent in not noticing anything of the sort.

 

[MGibster]

As much as I don't like disagreeing with you, I'm going to have to here. Yes, embarrassment is often one of the first things that comes up in these situations. I'm not saying it should or that it has any factual reason to, but yes, it does. "What did I do wrong" or self blame is one of the first things that often happens, along with being just embarrassed that the whole thing even happened.

That's been my experience with employees reporting sexual harassment at work. They absolutely shouldn't feel any embarrassment because they've done nothing wrong, but there are a lot of complicated emotions swirling around and sometimes embarrassment is one of them. And let's face it, we as a society send mixed messages about people who report coworkers. While most of us want people to report bad behavior, there's also an attitude among many that tattle tales aren't welcome and "snitches get stitches."

 

[Shiroiken]

I managed a hotel with a convention hall for years, and while we were comparatively tiny, I can say with absolute certainty that we would never allow a person to sleep in the lobby, and we would directly address the situation.

I think I depends on how the "sleeping" appears (linked post doesn't detail). I've seen a lot of people sleeping in the lobby during cons, but most of them were semi-seated, as opposed to laying out. When I fell asleep waiting on my roommate at Origins, I was laying out fully, using my backpack as a pillow. A guard woke me up after about an hour, and all he asked was for my room number. I don't know if he even checked, since the room wasn't in my name and he never came back. Admittedly, this was years ago.

 

[MGibster]

This is by far the best way, but I can tell you from experience that this is too expensive for most cons. When I was volunteering in my youth, we would cram as many people into a hotel room as allowed. And then add some more for good measure.

I figured saving a few bucks was the reason. My advice, either spend the money for separate rooms, use fewer volunteers and get the same number of rooms, or stop offering rooms altogether. I wouldn't want to risk any possible liability for pairing a predator with someone in a hotel room, nor would I want any incident being associated with my organization or event. I understand this is the way it's always been done, but that's not a good reason to keep doing it that way.

 

[Umbran]

As much as I don't like disagreeing with you, I'm going to have to here. Yes, embarrassment is often one of the first things that comes up in these situations. I'm not saying it should or that it has any factual reason to, but yes, it does. "What did I do wrong" or self blame is one of the first things that often happens, along with being just embarrassed that the whole thing even happened.

1) Guilt is not "embarrassment".
2) Shame is not "embarrassment".

"Embarrassment" is what you feel when you loudly fart in an elevator full of strangers. Shame is what you feel when you fear society will shun you because they think events speak to your own character, rather than your assailants, and you feel they might be right...

The words you choose to talk about his matter. You are choosing words that diminish the trauma, fear, and despair surrounding such events. If you continue to use such language, the "I'm not blaming the victim," stance becomes questionable.

 

[eyeheartawk]

Yeah, the Bill Webb incident seems the most comparable event in recent years and the fallout been very different. I would like to think that a lot has changed in five years and that Bill Webb would see immediate consequences if it happened today. But the cynical part of me suspects that it would still look about the same. Privilege still counts for a whole lot, unfortunately.

It's really bothered me for the past few years. I talked with drunk Bill Webb before all this became public, which at least prior to all this happening was mostly his default mode at cons. And, he was just a really gross dude. Gave real scuzzy vibes. I'm not going to go in detail about what he was talking about but it was real weird and gross.

He shouldn't have gotten away with it.

 

[SteveC]

1) Guilt is not "embarrassment".
2) Shame is not "embarrassment".

"Embarrassment" is what you feel when you loudly fart in an elevator full of strangers. Shame is what you feel when you fear society will shun you because they think events speak to your own character, rather than your assailants, and you feel they might be right...

The words you choose to talk about his matter. You are choosing words that diminish the trauma, fear, and despair surrounding such events. If you continue to use such language, the "I'm not blaming the victim," stance becomes questionable.

This is really getting frustrating, especially from someone that I have a huge amount of respect for.

Frankly, the notion that I'm trying to minimize this situation, when as I've written, I've had a class and training on this, and have literally been in the ER with friends multiple times is insulting. Having had to council people on my floor who were dealing with it after too much drink and then going back to sit awake for hours, I just have no idea what to even say in response.

Embarrassment is one of the most powerful reasons why people don't do things in the universe. It is far more powerful than "oops, I farted." Not acknowledging it as a factor and somehow saying it's minimizing things is ... I don't even know what.

I have to apologize at this point, since this is your house and you run the show here, but you could not be more off base in saying I'm trying to make this not sound important. I will put the work that I've put in on this front against most people. It's important to me, but it's also something I don't talk about much because it's far from what we normally come here to discuss. So I'll just bow out of the conversation at this point and just really scratch my head at the whole thing. Sounds like its time for me to take a break from Enworld for a bit.

As always, it's your house and your rules: feel free to delete all of my posts on the discussion if you feel they are somehow inappropriate.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Embarrassment is one of the most powerful reasons why people don't do things in the universe. It is far more powerful than "oops, I farted." Not acknowledging it as a factor and somehow saying it's minimizing things is ... I don't even know what.

I guess I'd ask, did your training use the word "embarrassment", because in common usage, it's simply not as strong of a word as "shame" or "guilt", which I believe is the point Umbran is trying to make. Even if a victim says they're just embarrassed, it's generally a stronger emotion than that.

Having been there for a couple of friends in college that went through similar situations, "embarrassment" seems to be a way to minimize the deeper feelings an assault creates, either as a coping mechanism for the stronger emotions, to avoid discussing them, or to try sparing the feelings of those who know about the situation, or a mix.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The words you choose to talk about his matter. You are choosing words that diminish the trauma, fear, and despair surrounding such events. If you continue to use such language, the "I'm not blaming the victim," stance becomes questionable.

Yes, words matter. And people with training and experience might be more likely to contribute to the conversation if they didn't think they'd be accused of victim-blaming because they used words that are actually employed in training, as opposed to the words you think are required.

FWIW, most training uses "embarrassment" and "shame" interchangeably, and often uses "embarrassment or shame" given that there is no precise delineation. Other common phrases are "self-doubt," "guilt," "ashamed," and even "unease."

It's a complicated topic (of course) and the feelings of victims can be complicated and even contradictory at times. Shaming people or publicly embarrassing them or guilting them because they aren't using the terms you want them to use does not help people discuss the topic openly, and requiring your labels on the victim's feelings is not what we want when it comes to supporting victims.

 

[SteveC]

I guess I'd ask, did your training use the word "embarrassment", because in common usage, it's simply not as strong of a word as "shame" or "guilt", which I believe is the point Umbran is trying to make. Even if a victim says they're just embarrassed, it's generally a stronger emotion than that.

Having been there for a couple of friends in college that went through similar situations, "embarrassment" seems to be a way to minimize the deeper feelings an assault creates, either as a coping mechanism for the stronger emotions, to avoid discussing them, or to try sparing the feelings of those who know about the situation, or a mix.

So right after I say "hey, time to take a break..." I respond to this. I wanted to do this because I think it's important because the word "embarrassment" seems to be the issue. Yes, that's the word that gets used. As you point out, it's an attempt to mask the real underlying problems of shame, guilt, fear, anger ... you name it. You might think of the world "embarrassment" as a safe way to say all of those other things. It's a surface, immediate way to minimize what just happened.

And I used it because it's one of the words that actually have been used with me. Almost all the time. In my example of what happened actually at Gen Con, that was what the person lead with. If you think about it, it's a lot easier to start a conversation with "I'm so embarrassed..." rather than go into the deeper issues. "Hey, I almost had a life altering situation" Those deeper things can and will come out when the person feels comfortable with them.

The reason I'm kind of being pedantic about this is not to trivialize the situation (far from it!), but because it's something that people actually start thinking.