Get rid of the half-races, except halflings ;o)

[Aldarc]

NO: Nearly everything else posted on this thread. People of obviously mixed race and heritage are becoming more and more common in our (real) world, and it's about time to shake your assumptions of how such characters (real or fantasy) should act and look.

Then you should properly make the distinction between an interracial human and an interspecies mating, which is what half-races represent. The people who are arguing against half-races are not somehow denying the reality of the real world by saying the notions of half-races are silly. In fact, I would argue that it is the opposite, that those who select half-races are denying reality by avoiding creating real characters who may be of an interracial heritage within a single species.

... They are not "lame." They do not necessarily take after one parent or another. Not all mixed people have the same attributes.

But game characters based upon racial selection do. I could be a half American Indian and half Mexican character, but at the end of the day, my stats would still be that of a human. And there is nothing stopping human characters of being interracial between other human cultures, but half-races of the interspecial variety are just so shallowly conceived.

They have a very important place in almost any thriving society's economic and cultural history.

Okay. But what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

And they are not watered-down or "asian lite," "black lite" or "human lite" any more than a PC in a game would be "orc lite" or "elf lite."

Of course not, but those are human mating so the notion of "asian lite" or "black lite" is quite ridiculous, but when you look at the purposeful racial selection of characters which belong to different distantly related species as well as the rationale for selecting these half-races, that is where the Diet Orc and Elf Lite becomes quite apparent.

 

[Li Shenron]

YES: The limited "racial" mixing is silly -- we should not have a default assumption that a "half-" origin is necessarily human. Nor should the game designers try to force a group of "half-" anything into a standard culture description. The game mechanics of this issue are badly designed.

NO: Nearly everything else posted on this thread. People of obviously mixed race and heritage are becoming more and more common in our (real) world, and it's about time to shake your assumptions of how such characters (real or fantasy) should act and look. ... They are not "lame." They do not necessarily take after one parent or another. Not all mixed people have the same attributes. They have a very important place in almost any thriving society's economic and cultural history. And they are not watered-down or "asian lite," "black lite" or "human lite" any more than a PC in a game would be "orc lite" or "elf lite."

And YES: I'll keep poking into threads like this. Because our experiences in real life influence our fantasy game playing, and our experiences at the roleplaying game table can influence our real lives.

But I think that this is not exactly what happens in D&D. "Races" as in real-life ethnic physical features don't exist in the core game (some settings have them) by default. A D&D half-elf is something more equivalent to a mule bred by a horse and a donkey... IMHO the reason why many people dislike half races is exactly that they are inter-species and not inner-species, and when you make them ubiquitous then you lose the reason in the first place why you should still have "pure" races (like in fact in the real world there is no real reason to make distinction between different human races).

 

[DandD]

The problem is also that these so-called half-races are capable of procreation amongst themselves, unlike mules or hinnies, and are so a race of their own.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I'm not a fan of half-elves, half-orcs, or half-anything-else. I'd rather they came up with an entirely new race.

One other thing that's always bugged me: cultural traits (like weapon familiarity or skill bonuses) being included as racial traits. I think all characters should get to choose a cultural trait based on their home or upbringing (regardless of race), and that racial traits should be limited to strictly physiological abilities (darkvision, stonecunning, ability mods).

For example, a dwarf from Bobtonia and a human from Bobtonia would both pick from the same pool of cultural traits. With perhaps the dwarf adding weapon familiarity to the list. But not every single dwarf, from every culture, should automatically have weapon familiarity.

 

[Umbran]

I started this new topic after reading the "mystery race" thread.

I dislike the whole half race notion and think it is a waste of space. And why do they all have to be half-human? Why not dwarf-gnomes, or elf-halflings, or dwarf-goblins? What about 1/4 races? Because it is too silly to be a significant part of the core rules.

I think it has more to do with the fact that human/elf and human/orc halfbreeds reside in Tolkien, one of the major inspirations for the game.

Just my thoughts and call to arms. Am I alone?

Alone, no, I am sure you aren't. However, I think you are missing a major point...

Given that you can easily just tell your players, "I don't allow half-elves," you need a better reason to remove a traditional piece of the core rules than that some folks don't like them.

The core rules are for basic, general play. I don't like the idea of substituting a race that's far from "generic" fantasy (like githyanki), for something that's rather established in the fantasy genre and a long-time staple of the game. D&D already has enough D&D-isms in it to make them all a bit of a barrier to entry. I'd prefer to not add more.

Most really interesting racial powers (like flight, or teleportation, even if limited) are also powerful. And that becomes a major headache in terms of balance, so again, I'm not terribly interested. And I prefer character powers to be more defined by their choices in life than accident of birth, to be honest.

So, suggest a couple of specific alternatives that are better than the half-races, and I might consider it. But I'm not going to agree to chuck them without some assurance that the next thing along will be better.

 

[Mokona]

With regards to design the half-human races don't do well. They lack a niche of their own and were only mechanically exciting when they let humans multiclass.

My vote? Please remove half-elf, half-orc, and gnome from the Player's Handbook.

Half-orc should be replaced by orc (plus a medium-to-large giant PC race) and half-elf isn't needed with both drow and eladrin present.

 

[Anthtriel]

I think it has more to do with the fact that human/elf and human/orc halfbreeds reside in Tolkien, one of the major inspirations for the game.

Given that you can easily just tell your players, "I don't allow half-elves," you need a better reason to remove a traditional piece of the core rules than that some folks don't like them.

The core rules are for basic, general play. I don't like the idea of substituting a race that's far from "generic" fantasy (like githyanki), for something that's rather established in the fantasy genre and a long-time staple of the game. D&D already has enough D&D-isms in it to make them all a bit of a barrier to entry. I'd prefer to not add more.

Most really interesting racial powers (like flight, or teleportation, even if limited) are also powerful. And that becomes a major headache in terms of balance, so again, I'm not terribly interested. And I prefer character powers to be more defined by their choices in life than accident of birth, to be honest.

Half-elves and half-orcs are not fantasy staples as far as I'm concerned. Tolkien may have had them, but you can easily miss that Elrond is a half-elf if you didn't read the Silmarillon, and half-orcs in LotR are really just orcs with a bit of human mixed in to make them resistant to sunlight.
Both Elrond and the Uruk-hai are probably better expressed by being just elf and orc respectively, instead of a distinct write-up.

So, suggest a couple of specific alternatives that are better than the half-races, and I might consider it. But I'm not going to agree to chuck them without some assurance that the next thing along will be better.

Ancestry Feats - take a feat to get some racial traits of one race, and qualify for special powers, feats or racial abilities further down the line - have been proposed and seem quite reasonable and flexible, allowing you to play any combination of races you want, without having to bother with seperate write-ups. It's such an elegant solution that I have a very hard time understanding why it is not implemented. And all I can think of is legacy baggage.

This is the one choice for 4E that really seems plain bad to me. If the En-World legacy grognards don't like seperate half-elf write-ups (if you believe the polls), then who actually likes them anyway?
Surely not new 3E players, as everyone learned quickly that 3E half-elves are just a waste of time. Gnomes, though certainly not the most popular or iconic fantasy races either, have been a lot more popular in my experience. And if three "small" races are one to many, then three "elvish" races are certainly one to many as well.

 

[Desdichado]

Just my thoughts and call to arms. Am I alone?

Checking on the other thread here in this forum on the same topic, I'd say no, you're not alone.

I think elves and orcs should be playable races; half elves and half orcs could possibly be sidebars that take up little space. An orc-blooded or elf-blooded feat in many ways is even better, as it opens up the field to cross breeding amongst all the races.

 

[Betote]

Ancestry Feats - take a feat to get some racial traits of one race, and qualify for special powers, feats or racial abilities further down the line - have been proposed and seem quite reasonable and flexible, allowing you to play any combination of races you want, without having to bother with seperate write-ups. It's such an elegant solution that I have a very hard time understanding why it is not implemented. And all I can think of is legacy baggage.

That's definitely the way I'd go. An ancestry feat for every race would become something much more diverse, with possibilities of half-anything for the ones who want them and, for the ones who don't, just the option to forbid the combinations they didn't see as fitting to their campaigns.

 

[olshanski]

I think elves and orcs should be playable races; half elves and half orcs could possibly be sidebars that take up little space. An orc-blooded or elf-blooded feat in many ways is even better, as it opens up the field to cross breeding amongst all the races.

Brilliant idea.
Hopefully you'll be tapped soon to begin design work on 5E.