Gishes themes, classes, paragon paths and concepts

[GMforPowergamers]

OK, so what types of fighter/mages do you want to see in D&D NEXT?


I am going to work my way backwards from 4e.

I liked the swordmage from day 1 in the FR book. It did not in and of itself really do everything I wanted from a gish, but it was a good solid frame to work with. I used the swordmage as my base and multi into wizard (once for the arcane tower PP, and once to pp multi) a couple of times.

When Bards came out I felt that the Valor's Bard was very much the feel I wanted when I wanted to play a Link like magic swordman.

When the Bladesinger came out, I loved the concept, but not the excution (my own house rule doubled there daily powers)

4e also added the Avenger and the Warden as Divine and Primal weapon useres that had some gish feel to them. The warden felt great, but I could not get it to click. The Avenger on the other hand blew my mind.


3e AND 3.5 both had a good multi class system. I could take 2 fighter levels then the rest wizard (or caster level Prestige classes) and be good, but It never felt right. I tried Dusk blade and had some good luck with it (espicaly mixing in some book of 9 swords stuff). The warlock with it's spell like ability to cast eldritch blast through a sword made a nasty combatant.

2e was a ton of fun and I loved the Kit Bladesinger, some of my most fun was playing one.

What I want from NEXT, is a good mix of them. I want a multi class system that lets me be a fighter/Magic user out of the gate. I also want specility classes (or themes, or pparagon paths what ever) that let me dupplicate some of the above idea's.


The problem is there is alot for a gish to cover.

- I want to be a master spell caster with a bit of sword play (4e wiz/wiz spiral tower, or a 3e wizard 5/fighter 2/eldritch knight 4)
- I want to be a kick but swordsman with some dabbler stuff in magic (4e Bard or fighter/wiz, or a 3e fighter 4/wiz3/spell sword 4)
- I want to use magic to fight with my sword (4e bladesinger or swordmage, 3e duskblade)
-I want to self buff and go crazy swordman
- any combo of the above.

 

[Savage Wombat]

The word "gish" must die here and now!

Unless you are a githyanki, you are not and cannot be a gish! End of discussion!

Use "swordmage" or "F/MU" if you're so in need of a shorthand.

/rant

Anyway, yes, it would make many players happy to have rules allowing for meleeing wizards.

 

[tlantl]

Either specific fighter/mage combinations or multi and dual classes that you choose at character creation or you stop training forever in the other classes you have when you choose another.

I don't think race should dictate what classes you can take but I believe it makes more sense that you can't suddenly become another class just because a player thinks it would be a good idea or it will help with the uber build they envisioned.

I think it's cheesy and illogical in many cases. I mean how can you suddenly become a class that assumes you spend years as a student such as cleric or wizard or monk? I really dislike the term level dipping and don't allow it in games I run. It would really be nice if the rules backed me up.

 

[FireLance]

Unless you are a githyanki, you are not and cannot be a gish! End of discussion!

I shall remember that when I'm in my bungalow, feeling schadenfreude at a faux pas committed by a persona non grata.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I shall remember that when I'm in my bungalow, feeling schadenfreude at a faux pas committed by a persona non grata.

I suppose you think it's alright to call Lancelot a samurai then.

 

[FireLance]

I suppose you think it's alright to call Lancelot a samurai then.

If:

(1) We didn't already have an actual word* to describe his "profession"; and
(2) It wasn't also shorter and more convenient to use than "samurai",

I might.

* Portmanteaus and compound words don't count.

 

[Mattachine]

I don't care so much for gish, but I do want to see zerth.


In any case, I agree with the OP. Fighter/magic-user is an important design space to consider, and late 3e and 4e showed that it can be done well.

 

[steeldragons]

hmmm. No sir, I don'like it.

Be Fighter/Magic-user if you want to be...ya know...a Fighter/Magic-user.

Multiclassing, in my dream universe 5e, is:
1) 2 Classes only. Taken/chosen at Character Creation. That's all.
2) May only be done with between "Base" classes (Ftr, Cle, Mu, Thf) or certain "sub-classes" and a base class.

Most subclasses have lots of specific flavors and additional powers that they receive for being that class. They do not need, or shouldn't be able to, add a whole separate disparate set of skills and abilities when they wake up one day with enough XP.

I would also advocate certain sub-classes that are too "involved" in their training, discipline, honed or secret skills, to have time or energy to "multi-class" at all. Paladin and Monk are obvious...Bards are already their own one-man party...but I would go so far as to add Druid and Assassin there...perhaps Psions or Warlocks too.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe no sub-classes get to multi-class at all. Base classes only!

Do we really need, out of the box, a "Bladesinger" and a "Swordmage" and a "Duskblade" and a "Hex-knife" and a "Daggerwitch" and a "Witchdagger" and a dozen other "Sharppointycasterspeller"?

Call it a "Ftr/MU" and add whatever "flavorful term that means 'guy with spells and a sword' in your game world" that you like. Heck, make a half-dozen warring factions of them, all called something different...but the Character sheet will still say "Ftr/MU" or, maybe, "Thf/MU".

 

[Bungo_Underhill]

I suppose you think it's alright to call Lancelot a samurai then.

Ronin maybe - a Samurai wouldn't have slept with his master's wife...

 

[Mercurius]

Why does F/MU sound like an insult? "F/MU yourself, Savage Wombat!"

Anyhow, I'd like to see race-specific specializations in classes and multi-classes. To me, elves should just be extra-special with fighter/mage combos. I'm not sure how this would work, but maybe multi-classing would be easier for them.

The eternal problem with multiclassing is being pretty good at a lot of things but not great at anything. I'd like to see that change a bit; to me a fighter/mage is someone who is a master swordsman--but not versed in a multitude of weapons and armors--and has either a variety of accenting magic, or is very good at a few spells.