Goblins as a PC Race

[Nahat Anoj]

(Note: I originally posted this topic in 4e Rules, when it really should have been here!)

When monsters make the transition from an MMx write-up to a full-blown PC race, they usually get a few tweaks and minor buffs to give them some flavor. For example, before their PC write-up, gnomes in MM1 only had their skill bumps, Fey Origin, Reactive Stealth, and Fade Away. When they were written up in PH2, they got Master Trickster (1/encounter ghost sound as a minor action) and Trickster's Cunning (+5 saves versus illusions), both of which are cool abilities that really play up the sly nature of the gnome race.

Unfortunately, it'll be a while (if ever) until they get around to statting up goblins as a PC race. One of my players wants to make a goblin bard in an upcoming level 1 one shot this Sunday, and I'd like to give him some cool extras. Can anyone think of any ideas, or has anyone tried their hand at this already? In case you're interested, here's what goblins have already:

Ability scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Dexterity
Size: Small
Speed: 6 squares.
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Goblin
Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Thievery.
Goblin Reflexes: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Reflex defense.
Goblin Tactics: You can use goblin tactics as an at-will power.

We can also extend this to hobgoblins and bugbears if people would like, although the need for those monsters to be statted up as PC races is less for me. I don't have any ideas for bugbears, although I know they'd lose Oversized if they were given the full PC treatment.

For hobgoblins, I'm thinking about changing their ability scores slightly. Right now, they have +2 Con/+2 Cha. I'm thinking about changing their ability score bonuses to +2 Con/+2 Dex, so they can be good flail-using fighters. But I'd like hobgoblins to have some synergy with warlord, so I might make their ability bonuses be +2 Con, +2 Dex or +2 Cha.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

To continue the discussion from the original thread ...

True, that would be cool, but way too versatile. Unless there's one that escapes me at the moment, no race in 4e is given any sort of choice on their racial adjustments- save the human, who only gets one boost as the tradeoff.

Changelings can choose to have a +2 in Dex or Int - the other +2 is in Cha. When Dark Sun comes out, muls will get +2 Str or +2 Con, +2 Wis.

Just because they use flails doesn't mean that they should have a racial bonus to it beyond proficiency. Dwarves make great Fighters, but they don't get an option to have a bonus to Strength, do they?

True, but dwarf fighters get great synergy with Con, for hitpoints *and* axe/hammer use, and with Wis (for OAs). Given all the flail use associated with hobgoblins, I think it's important for the race to have strong mechanical underpinnings for the fluff. Because if hobgoblins *don't* have a Dex bonus, then half-orcs or bugbears are clearly better flail users than hobboes, and that's sacrilege.

I think that Hobgoblin Warlords make the most sense, and as such, their stats (Con and Cha) should reflect that. Being great at using a flail is always an option, whether they get a stat bonus or not. Racial bonuses should nudge you in the direction of what class to take, not what build to go for, IMO.

Well, right now, hobboes don't really have *any* stat bonuses to reflect their proficiency with the flail. Sure, you can patch it with feats, but at the end of the day, IMO it's really important to have the stats to back it up.

 

[Camelot]

I'll just throw out a bunch of ideas for the goblin and you can pick up what you like.

- Roll twice for Stealth checks.

- +1 defenses when bloodied, or against bloodied creatures.

- Proficiency with short swords and/or leather armor.

- After being forced to move, can shift 1 square as a free action.

Think of mobility and dodging; that seems to be what their designed around.

Just make sure that they are different from halflings and drow. I think that won't be much of a problem. And as long as it seems balanced, it probably is. Races have a lot of swing room.

 

[circadianwolf]

Overlapping with halflings can be a danger (if you're concerned about that), as they're both small and dodge-y.

I would do something like this:

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
Size: Small
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Goblin
Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Thievery
Cowardly: While bloodied, you gain a +1 bonus to your speed.
Nimble Step: When you shift, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex until the beginning of your next turn.
Opportunistic Dodge: You can use opportunistic dodge as an encounter power.

Opportunistic Dodge Goblin Racial Power
Encounter
Immediate Reaction o Personal
Trigger: An enemy misses you with an attack.
Effect: You can shift 1 square and gain combat advantage against the triggering enemy until the end of your next turn.

This is a major change from the MM write-up, of course, and likely not what your player is looking for. It addresses inconsistencies between MM racial traits and intended player race racial traits (which may well not matter for a one-shot), such as

a. at-will racial powers are discouraged,
b. racial bonuses to defense usually occur only when a race's ability bonus overlap the same defense (e.g., eladrin and goliaths get +1 Will because their racial ability bonuses both contribute to Reflex and Fortitude, respectively),
and c. races generally feature one or two more mechanically useful racial traits (such as circumstantial bonuses to attack or defenses) and one or two more flavorful racial traits (such as racial weapon proficiencies).

Some quick racial feats as well, though likely not relevant for a level 1 delve:

Deadly Dodge
Prerequisite: goblin, opportunistic dodge power
Benefit: When you use your opportunistic dodge racial power, you gain a bonus to damage rolls against the triggering enemy until the end of your next turn. This bonus is equal to your Dexterity modifier.

Goblin Weapon Training
Prerequisite: goblin
Benefit: You gain proficiency with one superior weapon with the off-hand property and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with weapons with the off-hand property.

Quick Feint
Prerequisite: goblin, trained in Bluff
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to gain combat advantage as a minor action.
You gain a +2 feat bonus to Bluff checks.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

This is a major change from the MM write-up, of course, and likely not what your player is looking for.

I like being able to get combat advantage on the first attack you make after using Goblin Tactics, but I'd probably make that a racial feat.

I looked at The History of Goblinhood in D&D over at the Goblin Defense Fund and read over the old MM entries for them. The one thing I noticed that's missing in the current 4e MM PC write-up is some mechanical underpinnings for the goblin predilection towards ambushes and their ability to live - thrive, even - in filth and squalor. Here are two racial features that I've thought of:

1. Getting an extra square or two of movement during surprise rounds.

2. Getting a bonus (+5?) to defenses against disease attacks, to saving throws to avoid contracting a disease, or to Endurance checks made to maintain/improve your position on the disease track. Or perhaps getting the bonus to all three of these things.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

This is a major change from the MM write-up, of course, and likely not what your player is looking for. It addresses inconsistencies between MM racial traits and intended player race racial traits (which may well not matter for a one-shot), such as

a. at-will racial powers are discouraged,
b. racial bonuses to defense usually occur only when a race's ability bonus overlap the same defense (e.g., eladrin and goliaths get +1 Will because their racial ability bonuses both contribute to Reflex and Fortitude, respectively),
and c. races generally feature one or two more mechanically useful racial traits (such as circumstantial bonuses to attack or defenses) and one or two more flavorful racial traits (such as racial weapon proficiencies).

Somehow, when I responded to your post the first time, I didn't comprehend your interesting discussion. Sorry about that, you have some good ideas to consider. In particular, the idea of making Goblin Tactics into an encounter power has a lot of merit. The only at-will racial power I can think of is the changeling's shapechanging ability, but that's not directly related to combat.

In addition to what is currently listed in the MM, here's what I ended up giving the PC:

Devious Scamper: You gain a +2 bonus to speed during the surprise rounds and the first non-surprise round of any combat.

Goblin Vigor: You gain a +5 bonus to defenses made against disease attacks, to saving throws made to avoid contracting a disease, and to Endurance checks to determine disease progression.

 

[circadianwolf]

I think both of those are great features. Goblin Vigor is flavorful and not too mechanically powerful, and Devious Scamper is useful for anyone (melee characters trying to charge in, ranged characters trying to get away). Echoes of one of the battlemind's class features (Speed of Thought).

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I think both of those are great features. Goblin Vigor is flavorful and not too mechanically powerful, and Devious Scamper is useful for anyone (melee characters trying to charge in, ranged characters trying to get away). Echoes of one of the battlemind's class features (Speed of Thought).

Yeah, I was thinking it was battlemind-ish. Devious Scamper is basically the same as the Mantle of Readiness feat for ardents. I am somewhat concerned about the potential for doubling up if there's an ardent in the party (that goblin will be zooming around the battle field ). But the only thing the goblin prescient bard used it for last night was to run under a table and hide during a surprise round. It seems like it will benefit roguish and warrior types more often.