Going to church? Don't forget your sawed-off shotgun!

[Michael Silverbane]

Nobody was the bad guy and nobody needs to get kicked out of the group over this.

Except for the zombie. Who should totally have been shot in the face.

Later
silver

 

[Jim Hague]

Just because the system is Call of Cthulu doesn't mean that you have to play a game devoted to historical realism or believability. CoC makes a fine setting for dark pulp action.

By default, you're dealing with pseudo-historical Jazz Age tropes and setting. It isn't meant for 'dark pulp', and IMO the system doesn't support that well. You can do CoC as more action-oriented (look at the REH Mythos stories, Delta Green or the upcoming Mutants and Mastermind Superlink product featuring Golden Age supers against unknown horrors), but the BRP system doesn't work well for it. The d20 version is more suitable, but still far too deadly for action heroes.

There's also nothing wrong with using OOC knowledge to influence IC action if it jazzes things up a little. Accusations of "gaming the system" when you're "playing a game system" strike me as pretty funny.

Gaming the system isn't using OOC knowledge to make the game more fun, it's using OOC knowledge to further a single player's goals over the group's. In this case, it clearly upset another player, derailed the game and created this thread. That's poor form, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

I haven't read all the latest replies so if I repeat something others have said then forgive me.

I brought up the topic of bible quotes and CCW in church. I am agnostic and do not go to church, so have nothign invested in that. From the original post we did not have any information on the year this took place in (a big deal in any topic on firearms), Nor the characters background etc.

To the mods or other posters, with the information at the time, the intent was to show that there are plenty of people who do bring firearms to church (modern day as we didn't know it was '25). These people go through the trouble and expense to get the proper permits and licences to do so. They can not get these permits if they have a criminal record, domestic violence restraining orders and so forth. Basically average people who desire to protect thier familly. They are not paraniod. This was done to inform the OP that this happens every Sunday across the nation. I can't speak for other nations outside of the US as I am not as familliar with their laws or customs. Most people not involved in firearms would not know this information. Simply to point out that it takes place and is no big deal.

I also hate 'facts' with nothing to back them up so hence the link.

I happen to have a great number of familly members who are the pacifist version of Christians so I am familliar with their arguments, hence the bible stuff. Not to spark a religious debate. I have no personal religion but respect other peoples even if I disagree with them. In fact I view a persons religion as SACRED. I don't try to convert anyone or change anyones mind and hate when others try to get me to join their religion.

I also know plenty of Christians who are the 'praise the lord pass the ammunition' type. (Meant as tounge in cheek in good fun not deragatively).

I also tried to show how a GM who may not be into firearms and the applicable laws could provide some framework to limit metagaming with out just saying "your character wouldn't do that!" I always HATED when another player or the GM tried that line in any game I played. So I provided other information on how it could be nixed from a real world stand point. Again at the time we did not know the year this was taking place, so most of it was geared to modern times. I have also not played CoC and do not know the firearm rules, proficiencies etc. IRL a sawed off shot gun is nearly useless past a few feet no matter what you load it with. More likely to wound or piss the bad guy off unless at point blank range. It would be a substandard weapon and pretty much used because you have nothing better.

I am also aware that some people on this thread will not like firearms and never will. To each his own. Nothing I can say would change their mind, and is not my intent in any way. I would not force them to use or own one and simply expect the same respect. Live and let live. As long as I am not hurting anyone leave me alone.

IN regards to a sawed off blowing up if you cut it down. It won't. The shorter it is the more the shot load will spread and make a looser pattern, and the slower the protectile/s will be. You don't have to be a gun smith, just get a hacksaw. In '25 you could buy shot guns shorter than 18" barrels, and the culture had a much different attitude towards firearms than they do now, and most americans would have passing familliarity with their operation. They would also not do things in as much as a safty conciencous manner as gun users in general would today. Though most would not be reckless. Im not sure how CoC handles short barreled shot guns, but if it is anything like how D&D handles the weights of various weapons (2-8x's heavier than they would be), then I would not be surprised to see it as an effective weapon, which it is not. Give me a 1911 instead.

To close it does not sound like the Keeper, who I assume is the GM, had a chat about what the characters would expect in terms of the super natural and firearm laws of the time. I don't know what gun laws 1925 NYC had and I know way more about gun laws than I want to know, and I am into firearms. So it is not unreasonable to assume the GM had any idea about the laws or culture of the time. Frankly the GM didn't seem to have a problem, just one or more players. And it seems like the problem was his preconceptions on church being a proper place to bring a firearm. Not the arm in question, which as a GM I would have had an issue with, and would have houseruled any approriate stats to reflect real world performace characteristics. Which is one reason why I don't play games with firearms as I know too much about them and the laws that I would not be able to susspend disbelief in the rules. So I stick to D&D, I know less about swords bows and magic.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

snip..
In a game like CoC, where it's a fantasy-historical portrayal of the Jazz Age, it's neither reasonable to carry everything you own with you (unless you're a drifter or hobo), nor to carry a firearm around in public places...especially a firearm that will get you perforated by police for carrying it. A (full-sized) shotgun in the car trunk? Sure, I could believe that. A sawed-off that has the single purpose of killing another human being (an act that can provoke a SAN check)? Not a chance.

And in another quote you mention it being impractical and deadliest weapon.

Not knowing how CoC does the damage on them. Yes they are impracticle, but hardly the deadliest. They weaker than a normal shot gun, nearly impossible to shoot with any degree of accuracy. They are mearly a cheap sub standard concealable weapon.

And the "single purpose of killing another human being" More like wound unless you are less than a foot away, and no more powerful than a normal shot gun. Their only advantage is concealable. There is also no 911 so unelss he is running around town waving it around like amad man and there is not a cop right there then it is unlikely all of NY's finest will be around the next corner to perforate him. There is nothing wrong with something 'soley designed to kill a human being' a tool is a tool. This is NO differant than a sword. It has no purpose but to hurt men. You can't hunt with it. A sword has no morals it only does what a person does with it, its simply a tool. In the hands of good people it protects and is used in the defense of home/country the same of any firearm. Short barreled shotgun would be better suited to personal defense than offence in cramped quarters than a full size shotgun. And poorly suited to offence because of its lack of range and horrible pattern. Though nearly any decent calliber pistol would be better.

The only source I know of positive battle field experience with short barreled shotguns (longer than your Mad Max type and pump operated) was in vietnam as with using buckshot it would instantly put out 9 00 buck shot for each trigger pull and for a very short time you could put out more lead than an automatic weapon. You also could not see past 2 feet from jungle concealment. Or in tunnel work, but usually the tunnel rats would use a 1911 for that. These shot guns would be bewtween 14-18 inches long.

For all we know the character in question was an Indiana Jones wanna be and had limited weapon prof slots, playing in a game where the GM likes to TPK at every chance and wonders why characters metagame. If the Gm metagames like that it forces the players to.

 

[Numion]

A sawed-off that has the single purpose of killing another human being (an act that can provoke a SAN check)?

Pray tell what are the uses for an M1911? Hunting big game?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Gaming the system isn't using OOC knowledge to make the game more fun, it's using OOC knowledge to further a single player's goals over the group's. In this case, it clearly upset another player, derailed the game and created this thread. That's poor form, no matter how you slice it.

Just so we're clear, if only one player has a problem with it, and the Keeper is fine with it. Isn't it more accurate to say the complaining player derailed the game?

And you can get a shotgun pretty short before it's an issue. I can't stand shotguns in general, but I fellow enthusiast has an 8" barrel side by side that is barely 12" overall. With the angled Pistol grip, the thing is also easy enough to conceal in many ways.

The only "gaming the system" I really see is that the guy was limited to shotguns, so he chose the shortest shotgun he could. In reality, the person probably would have just grabbed a Colt Pocket or something.

It's an arguement about opinions, so I don't think anything can be "clear".

 

[Jim Hague]

And in another quote you mention it being impractical and deadliest weapon.

Not knowing how CoC does the damage on them. Yes they are impracticle, but hardly the deadliest. They weaker than a normal shot gun, nearly impossible to shoot with any degree of accuracy. They are mearly a cheap sub standard concealable weapon.

In the BRP version of CoC, there's a chance for an 'impale' result (critical hit) - shotguns have the highest chance for such, presumably because of gross tissue damage. Hence deadly. The inaccuracy, short range and likelihood of a barrel failure lends itself to the defintion of 'impractical'.

And the "single purpose of killing another human being" More like wound unless you are less than a foot away, and no more powerful than a normal shot gun. Their only advantage is concealable. There is also no 911 so unelss he is running around town waving it around like amad man and there is not a cop right there then it is unlikely all of NY's finest will be around the next corner to perforate him. There is nothing wrong with something 'soley designed to kill a human being' a tool is a tool. This is NO differant than a sword. It has no purpose but to hurt men. You can't hunt with it. A sword has no morals it only does what a person does with it, its simply a tool. In the hands of good people it protects and is used in the defense of home/country the same of any firearm. Short barreled shotgun would be better suited to personal defense than offence in cramped quarters than a full size shotgun. And poorly suited to offence because of its lack of range and horrible pattern. Though nearly any decent calliber pistol would be better.

I'm not going to argue the politics of guns; board rules. There is, however, no purpose to a sawed-off shotgun other than to make it more concealable and easily used against a human being. It's impractical for hunting, unless you're shooting snakes. Look up the Ithaca Autoburglar - a gun specifically designed with the sole stated purpose of ending another person's life if they attacked you in your car or home.


I do know the legal and law enforcement system during the '20s, however, and can speak with some knowledge on that topic. The cop of the streetcorner and neighborhood policeman was no myth. Likewise, because of yellow journalism, people saw gangsters, anarchists and Communists on every streetcorner. Thus, someone with a poorly-concealed firearm was likely to end up on the recieving end of the law's wrath...in the pre-Miranda days.

For all we know the character in question was an Indiana Jones wanna be and had limited weapon prof slots, playing in a game where the GM likes to TPK at every chance and wonders why characters metagame. If the Gm metagames like that it forces the players to.

It's been made fairly clear by previous posters what the substance of the game included. And in Call of Cthulhu, mortality is a very, very likely prospect. Investigators are fragile, human and perishable. But likewise, they aren't gun-toting adventurers a la D&D or a a modern action game. The GM may not have been clear on expectations...but at the same time, it takes little to no effort for a player to pick up the book and do a bit of reading while generating their character. The player that got upset didn't approach the issue properly, IMO - they did end up halting the game. That doesn't make their complaint any less legitimate, just ill-timed and poorly presented.

 

[phindar]

Really, there should be an understanding that if the players don't play their characters like paranoid psychotics, the GM won't punish them unnecessarily for occasionally being unprepared in situations where no reasonable person would be expecting attack. (The key words there are "unnecessarily" and "reasonable person".)

And again - where's the reasonable expectation? The characters have no knowledge of the supernatural, and even the paranoid scholar with ill-defined 'enemies' (more likely people who don't like his latest paper than gun-toting lunatics) has no reason to believe there'll be trouble.

I didn't say there was one. If it had been me, I would have played the scene for laughs, its something very much like Jayne from Firefly might do. (Simon: You brought your shotgun to church?!? Jayne: Don't seem so silly now does it? <BLAM!>) Of course, you could point out that Jayne would make a bizarre basis for a 1920's archeologist, and I'd agree with you.

My point above about the understanding is just this: Players shouldn't bring their shotguns to church (without good reason), and the GM shouldn't make the church encounter one that they will need the shotgun to survive, without some warning. Or to put another way, Players shouldn't play paranoid psychotics, and GM's shouldn't run games where only paranoid-psychotics have a chance of surviving.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

Jim: Out of curiosity I am wondering if you can elaborate 1920's law enforcement. I'm sure some CoC players will find it usefull and I would be interested. I am familiar with modern stuff but anything before the Miami Shootout I know very little about.

I'm also wondering for use non CoC players who happened upon the discussion if someone could compare the game rules for a shot gun, sawed off shot gun and a pistol like a 1911 or .38 S&W so we can see what we are dealing with, as long as that would not violate copyrights and what not. I am curious to see how the game specs them out now that we have covered rel life munitions.

Also if anyone can chime in on 'weapons designed soley to kill a human being' thing and CoC rules. I am wondering if there is a game rule in the game ruling that such weapons make you make some sort of sanity check or if it is a personal opinion type thing? If it is personal opinion mine is a tool is just a tool. You can use anything from your hand, a hammer or anything else to kill a person. The real weapon to quote one of my Sifu's is the human mind. Anything else is just an extention to apply kinetic force to a target. I'm curious if there are game rules for this? Would help to be on the same page as game is NOT real life. For instance I hate D&D alignements but play with them as a game construct even when I DM them because I like D&D.

I'm also curious if CoC is just set in the 20's era or if it is a modern type version too? Might be fun to look at.

 

[Odhanan]

I am wondering if there is a game rule in the game ruling that such weapons make you make some sort of sanity check or if it is a personal opinion type thing?

No, there is no such rule in Call of Cthulhu.