D&D 5E good things, bad things and things you would change about 5e

[mrpopstar]

When you can sneak through Hell undetected because your minimum roll beats everything's passive perception, no, I don't think so. Without expertise, a character can still be excellent at hiding, and has a good chance to beat those passives. Expertise makes it a lock, especially when paired with reliable skill.

The only scenario I've been offered to better understand your criticism relates to Perception, which I've already argued is the true culprit.

And that's the thing, I've looked at all of these issues -- expertise paired with reliable skill, expertise paired with magic items, expertise against non-proficient opposed checks, and the thing that is common is expertise. Look at any build that does incredible things with skills and it features expertise. At that point, I began to question if the root issue wasn't expertise. A swap to advantage on that skill vice doubling proficiency is still an excellent boost, and meets the narrative of an expert almost never failing routine or hard tasks in their field, and having a much better chance at the truly difficult than the non-expert. The doubling of the bonus just leads to wonky numbers and discounts the objectively set DC numbers too much.

I would expect any build that does incredible things with skills to feature expertise. I understand that to be the point of the feature.

 

[Cyvris]

Good-Spellcasting feels unique and interesting again. It has both utility and combat application. All classes have some interesting roleplaying hooks or abilities, with most having at least some form of out of combat utility.

Bad-Melee characters are relatively boring again. Spellcasting at times feels like a choice between combat effectiveness and interesting exploration options.


Improvements-I've houseruled in some replacements for melee basic attacks, though I don't love the current incarnation. Thinking I might take the "Fighting Styles' 5e currently has, add a few more, and let players change between them in the middle of combat/as the result of an attack hitting.

 

[Ovinomancer]

The only scenario I've been offered to better understand your criticism relates to Perception, which I've already argued is the true culprit.

I also offered grappling. And lockpicking. By the by, most devils are proficient in perception. The ability to still sneak past them automagically is the result of expertise paired with reliable skill. Knock out either of those blocks and it becomes more dangerous. If you asked me which I'd rather have, I'd immediately say expertise, as it's benefit is stronger. Reliable skill will still fail you for most of the higher tier Devils.

I would expect any build that does incredible things with skills to feature expertise. I understand that to be the point of the feature.

Yes, but many builds make choices to MC just to get ahold of expertise. That's my point -- obviously you're going to make the best choices when optimizing. But expertise is so good, there are many builds that splash rogue just to get ahold of it. When something is so good that even non-skill focused builds splash to get it, that ability should be carefully looked at.

But, anyway, the thread is about what people find good and bad about 5e. I've said my piece. If you'd like to discuss it further, start a new thread.

 

[mrpopstar]

I also offered grappling. And lockpicking. By the by, most devils are proficient in perception. The ability to still sneak past them automagically is the result of expertise paired with reliable skill. Knock out either of those blocks and it becomes more dangerous. If you asked me which I'd rather have, I'd immediately say expertise, as it's benefit is stronger. Reliable skill will still fail you for most of the higher tier Devils.

You mentioned grappling and lock picking, but I had hoped for a narrative scenario that features an 11th-level rogue who shouldn't expect to win a contest or succeed with a hard task where his expertise is relevant.

But, anyway, the thread is about what people find good and bad about 5e. I've said my piece. If you'd like to discuss it further, start a new thread.

Yikes! Just trying to see it as you see it.

 

[mellored]

A few things I would do.

1: drop the double die roll (to hit + damage). Make it one roll to speed things up.
2: drop the to-hit / saving throws difference. The player always rolls. Unless it's a secret roll.
3: Increase hit points/decrease damage, in order to allow for more tactics. I may be a bit alone on this one, but IMO, when brute force is the best tactic, cleverness and RP suffer.
4: Slower recovery. This goes along with #3, by adding more room between full HP/spells and none.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You mentioned grappling and lock picking, but I had hoped for a narrative scenario that features an 11th-level rogue who shouldn't expect to win a contest or succeed with a hard task where his expertise is relevant.

This was unclear.

Yikes! Just trying to see it as you see it.

Yikes? There was no heat or venom in my post. I didn't want to keep cluttering up this thread the OP is using for ideas for their own game by continuing to discuss my opinions about expertise. Like I said, if you do want to continue the discussion, start a new thread -- I'm game.

 

[Hakon Blum]

I don't know that my advice would help you much here. One of my biggest criticisms of 5E (aside from healing) is that the stats are too similar, and it's hard to figure out which one applies in any given situation - things like Perception keying off of Wisdom, while Investigation goes from Intelligence, so whether a given check is one or the other could be the difference between rolling at +20 and rolling at -1.

I also feel like a lot of stats are too easy to ignore, like how a Dex-based fighter can swing a scimitar and completely ignore their Strength score. It would make more sense, to me, if all melee attacks were governed by Strength. And for the same reason, if spell save DCs were all based on Int or Charisma or whatever, then that would also solve a lot of problems.

As a general guideline for game design, it's better to avoid anything that takes an average of two stats, because it makes it too hard to improve that thing later on. If your Swim is equal to the average of your Strength and Endurance, then it will be a pain to improve your Swim skill later on, because you could improve your Strength by +1 and your Swim might not change at all.

One way around that is to make your bonus equal to the sum of two stats, so your bonus to Swim would equal the sum of your Strength and Endurance, and improving either one would automatically improve the skill by the same amount. The limitation there is that your bonus to the skill check will always be larger than the bonus to either constituent stat check (e.g. it is way easier to hit a DC 17 on a Swim check than on a Strength check or Endurance check), but that's not an issue if everything you roll is a skill check and there aren't any checks where you only add a single stat.

Let me expand where i am heading for you so you can understand why i have gone the direction i have.


Strength= how strong the character is for their size (bruce lee's strength could be higher then a blue whales)
Size=how big the character is by mass, it will be an exponential component with a halfthor (the mountain) 18
Brawn= the combination of strength and size, this stat is similar to D&D's strength

Reflex=reaction time of the character
Dexterity= nimbleness/accuracy with hands(limbs)
Agility=the combination of reflexes and dexterity used for things like catching

Endurance=how much energy and stamina a character has, used for an energy resource like in Star Wars EOTE
Vitality=how tough and how good an immune system the character has
Fortitude=how strong/fit the persons body for survival purposes such as resisting poison and death

Knowledge=how much you know and have been educated (think hard drive of pc)
cunning=how quickly you learn knew knowledge or can think on the spot under pressure (think processor of pc)
Intellect= a combination of what you know and how fast you learn

Willpower=your mental strength and what you can intuit (think OS of PC)
Sense=how strong your body is with its senses, sight, hearing, smell, touch, taste.
Wisdom= a combination of your mental and senses

Charm= your ability to make friends, convince people, smooth talk, deceive.
Confidence= your self worth, your command ability, your scariness, your intimidation.
Presence= a combination of your outgoingness and your confidence.


now at the moment i am going with increases of even 1 point being a big thing...
here is a bonus to dice roll break down:
1-3=0
4-6=1
7-9=2
10-12=3
13-15=4
16-18=5
19-21=6
22-24=7
25-27=8
28-30=9
31-33=10
34-36=11
37-39=12
40=god/automatic

so a person is average weight say 120lb for a size of 10 and average strength 10
their combined is (3+3) /2 for a 10 and +3 bonus in brawn

the way bonuses have been done this way is it also allows easy changeover from the game warhammer
(wh40k will add 1 to all stats then swap over)

now with the standard accuracy 2d6+3 for average joe, a dc of 10 is 58% success chance

almost everything in game will have a skill attached to it
untrained=0
novice=+1
professional=+2
master=+3
Grand Master=+4

your stats won't really go up to often, similar to star wars eote your skills will be the things you will be aiming for to get that increase.

in a 2d6 system dice odds are as follows when you need to get over the number.
2=2.8% auto fail
3=97.2%
4=91.7%
5=83.3%
6=72.2%
7=58.3%
8=41.7%
9=27.8%
10=16.7%
11=8.3%
12=crit 2.8%

so a dc of 15 in current 5e translates to a dc of 12 in this, so average joe has only a 27.8% chance of succeeding which is very close to the current 30% chance of rolling a 15+ on a d20

by doing the average of 2 stats it keeps the bonuses small, but allows for a a 20th level with grandmaster trap smith and a cunning of 18 and dexterity of 18 to have a +12 to his 2d6 roll meaning he could possibly stop a dc 24 trap equivalent to a dc45 trap in current content
but with an 18 in those what does the rest of the character play like?

i don't believe in punishing those who maximise one field, they will be a character with a lot of weakness, but if you want to build a champion swimmer, a fencing master, or the mountain, then i feel you should be able to do so
multi stat dependency stops min maxing.

as i mentioned with other was to deal damage generally increase to damage will be from power or brawn, the lethal one i provided would be unlocked with a talent/feat

the feats id like to put in the game would be similar to mordhiems skills simple things that can change gameplay for the character.

so in summary at the moment each skill will have its own 2 stats which are averaged, and the only real way to increase it is to take skill ranks or use the limited ways that exist to bump up a stat.

i will take your advice under advisement though, and playlets bumping up dc's standard from 10 to 13 and adding the stats, but i feel if ability improvements are a rarity it isn't necessary.

 

[Hakon Blum]

Good-Spellcasting feels unique and interesting again. It has both utility and combat application. All classes have some interesting roleplaying hooks or abilities, with most having at least some form of out of combat utility.

Bad-Melee characters are relatively boring again. Spellcasting at times feels like a choice between combat effectiveness and interesting exploration options.


Improvements-I've houseruled in some replacements for melee basic attacks, though I don't love the current incarnation. Thinking I might take the "Fighting Styles' 5e currently has, add a few more, and let players change between them in the middle of combat/as the result of an attack hitting.

i was thinking of making general spells to which you then add energy type, each energy would have a different effect
fire has higher base damage
electric has chance to paralyse
frost slows
acid burns
necrotic can't be healed through magic
radiant can't be healed naturally
sonic causes deafening
force can't be resisted
psychic does less damage, but also causes fatigue
and so on.

when you learn a spell, you choose a damage type to accompany it

so for example the spell fireball would be called energy ball, when you learn it you pick what energy it does

energy types might also effect range/radius, spell components, duration etc....
id put all that in a chart and when you pick up the spell and choose the energy yo apply the chart to the spell and right down how i works.


i think this would make spell casting far more interesting

 

[Darkness]

You mean that expertise, which specifically apply to skill checks, doesn't have anything to do with the bounded accuracy assumptions for AC or saving throws? Wow, had not realized that.
...
You mean that, in a thread asking for preferences and dislikes, my answer is my preference? Wonders, will they ever cease?

This thread seems pretty nice. Let's keep it that way, please.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I do like the idea of choosing your energy type, like Trappings from Savage Worlds.

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