grapple rules
- Thread starter bweenie
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
bweenie said:
No. Number of grapple checks is dependent on BAB. An owlbear has a BAB of +5, so he only gets one grapple check.
-Hyp.
Kershek
Sci-Fi Newshound
It would seem that these sage responses say otherwise:
More on this subject from the sage:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=grappling+natural+weapons+sage&hl=en&lr=&selm=IH54b.2000%24tw6.346%40newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net&rnum=2
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=grappling+natural+weapons+sage&hl=en&lr=&selm=20030822185957.21471.00000603%40mb-m01.aol.com&rnum=1
More on this subject from the sage:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=grappling+natural+weapons+sage&hl=en&lr=&selm=IH54b.2000%24tw6.346%40newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net&rnum=2
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Kershek said:
From the rules for Grappling in the Combat chapter:
"You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling."
-Hyp.
Liquidsabre
Explorer
Damage Your Opponent: "Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack."
or even...
Starting a Grapple:
"Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times."
The number of grapple attempts that may be made to either start a grapple or take actions while in a grapple is simply dependent on the number of attacks the charcter or creature normally possesses (excluding two manufactured weapon use). I'm surprised we haven't seen an FAQ on this yet for 3.5 to clarify this besides the sage's comments.
or even...
Starting a Grapple:
"Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times."
The number of grapple attempts that may be made to either start a grapple or take actions while in a grapple is simply dependent on the number of attacks the charcter or creature normally possesses (excluding two manufactured weapon use). I'm surprised we haven't seen an FAQ on this yet for 3.5 to clarify this besides the sage's comments.
Last edited:
Prism
Explorer
Liquidsabre said:
Trouble is thats where is gets confusing. There is no such thing really as attacks a creature 'normally' gets. A hag straight from the monster manual gets 3 natural attacks, whereas a hag holding a one handed weapon gets 4 attacks. The same logic applies to a pit fiend which gets 4 weapon attacks or two slam attacks. PHB races are monsters too but with zero natural weapons
The problem is that many creatures use both natural attack routines and BAB iterative attacks and can switch between them at will. It wouldn't make any sense at all to allow the same creature holding a weapon to get up to 3 more grapple attacks than if than another without said weapon. All creatures, both standard races and creatures from the monster manual should work the same way - either you get a number of grapples from your natural weapons or you get a number of grapples from your BAB. The rules only discuss getting a number of grapple attempts from BAB
Ok, I'll admit I suck at the grapple rules. But to me, the Sage's answer is wr___ ... er, does not make sense.
Under "Starting a grapple", there is wording on BAB.
Under "If you are grappling", there is wording on BAB for ACTIONS.
--Activating a magic item (included for illustration - this is an ACTION that you cannot do more than once per round - its not based on BAB.)
--Attack your opponent - (attack roll vs AC) includes unarmed attack, natural attack and light weapon. Also, in this paragraph, two weapon fighting is excluded.
--Damage your opponent - (grapple check vs opposed grapple check) allows an opposed grapple check to do unarmed damage.
--Pin Your Opponent, Break another's pin, and Use Opponents Light Weapon are also listed, but all have similar wording about replacing an attack. All are covered under the general "if you are grappling" wording, directly above.
To me, this covers all the possible attacks before or during a grapple. Did I miss something? In all the cases above, it's based upon BAB - nothing about a creature with natural weapon attacks, except of course using a natural attack in place of a BAB-based attack.
In addition, I noticed that higher-level monks get "more" BAB-based unarmed attacks than other characters, so they get to do more BAB-based stuff during a grapple than other PC characters. As for monsters, I suppose one could design a monster which gets +9/+9/+9/+4 for BAB-based attacks (like a level 12 monk), and then it would get to do more stuff during a grapple, too. Since monsters usually can only exceed normal BAB attacks by taking -5 penalties, etc, the CR would need to be adjusted, too.
Comments welcome, of course.
--------------------------------------QUOTES FROM SRD BELOW
Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these ACTIONS take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
[then the srd lists the ACTIONS you can perform while grappling]:
Activate a magic item: [self-explanatory]
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Also: Pin Your Opponent, Break another's pin, and Use Opponents Light Weapon (not quoted here)
Also, under Monk: The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk.
Under "Starting a grapple", there is wording on BAB.
Under "If you are grappling", there is wording on BAB for ACTIONS.
--Activating a magic item (included for illustration - this is an ACTION that you cannot do more than once per round - its not based on BAB.)
--Attack your opponent - (attack roll vs AC) includes unarmed attack, natural attack and light weapon. Also, in this paragraph, two weapon fighting is excluded.
--Damage your opponent - (grapple check vs opposed grapple check) allows an opposed grapple check to do unarmed damage.
--Pin Your Opponent, Break another's pin, and Use Opponents Light Weapon are also listed, but all have similar wording about replacing an attack. All are covered under the general "if you are grappling" wording, directly above.
To me, this covers all the possible attacks before or during a grapple. Did I miss something? In all the cases above, it's based upon BAB - nothing about a creature with natural weapon attacks, except of course using a natural attack in place of a BAB-based attack.
In addition, I noticed that higher-level monks get "more" BAB-based unarmed attacks than other characters, so they get to do more BAB-based stuff during a grapple than other PC characters. As for monsters, I suppose one could design a monster which gets +9/+9/+9/+4 for BAB-based attacks (like a level 12 monk), and then it would get to do more stuff during a grapple, too. Since monsters usually can only exceed normal BAB attacks by taking -5 penalties, etc, the CR would need to be adjusted, too.
Comments welcome, of course.
--------------------------------------QUOTES FROM SRD BELOW
Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).
If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these ACTIONS take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
[then the srd lists the ACTIONS you can perform while grappling]:
Activate a magic item: [self-explanatory]
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.
Also: Pin Your Opponent, Break another's pin, and Use Opponents Light Weapon (not quoted here)
Also, under Monk: The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk.
I'm still confused, which isn't surprising. My main question still remains...does an owlbear (for example) get three grapple rolls to inflict subdual damage, or only one?
My next question would then be: if only one, whats the point of a bear grappling? I ask this because it's come up a few times and going through the whole rigamarol of grappling just so that you can lose most of your attacks, do less damage and it's subdual all at the same time seems disadvatageous to me. IE bad Dungeon master strategy.
My next question would then be: if only one, whats the point of a bear grappling? I ask this because it's come up a few times and going through the whole rigamarol of grappling just so that you can lose most of your attacks, do less damage and it's subdual all at the same time seems disadvatageous to me. IE bad Dungeon master strategy.
