Greater Spell Focus: balanced?

[Ravellion]

The thing is that I find this feat to be breaking limits that were inherent to the 3e core rules. No feats allowed fighters to suddenly do more damage: they just got maneuvers and grappling advantages and Pelor knows what. I have disallowed this feat after some experimentation with equal HD creatures to the caster not being able to make saves unless on a 19 or 20 - without the feat (the character had the maximum int available) it would have been a 17-20, which would double the chances of saving.

I have disallowed it for some time now (one of the only three feats so far from the Psionic Handbook and the Spaltbooks I have disallowed - the others are Greater Psionic Focus )) and Persistent spell.) and definitely like it better. Anyone else find this?

Rav

 

[Crothian]

It does take 2 feats and spellcasters don't get feats that fast. So, I don't think it's that big a deal.

 

[tleilaxu]

what exactly is wrong with a spellcaster being particularly good at a school of spells?

 

[hammymchamham]

The thing is that I find this feat to be breaking limits that were inherent to the 3e core rules. No feats allowed fighters to suddenly do more damage: they just got maneuvers and grappling advantages and Pelor knows what

Um, Weapon Specialization? Doesn't that allow 'fighters to suddenly do more damage?'

And spell focus (or greater spell focus) doesn't suddenly allow the spellcaster to do more damage, it allows for the potential

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hey, the regular spell focus feat can cut the chance of a villain saving by 2/3. If he needs an 18+ to save when the wizard doesn't have spell focus, he'll need a 20 to save when the wizard picks it up.

"But that never happens when the enemy's HD are equal to the caster's" you might say. Sure it does.
5th level Grey elf wizard with a headband of intellect (int 20--starting int 17 and headband or starting int 19 w/out) casting Hold Person (DC 16+3+spell focus=DC 18 or 20) spellon a 5th level orc barbarian with a wisdom penalty for 8 wisdom. (will save +0).

"Purposefully selected. Most orcs barbarians don't have wisdom penalties." OK. Take away the wisdom penalty. Spell focus still accomplishes the same thing you're complaining about Greater Spell Focus doing.

"But the orc would be raging. Or if he's a fighter, he'd have Iron Will." OK. A maximized grey elf might have a starting int of 20 and a headband by 5th level. DC 16+spell level=DC 19 base. DC 21 with spell focus. At +3, the raging orc needs to roll a 16 to save normally and an 18 to save against the spell focussed wizard. That's a 40% decrease in his chance of successfully saving.

The standard you're using to determine the brokenness of this feat isn't a very good one.

I've seen a few casters with Greater Spell Focus. It hasn't broken any of those games yet. (Although it does give them a chance of affecting monsters with strong saves against their chosen school.)

 

[Ravellion]

Well, I don't have grey elves, so that is yet another bit of ease on the saves on my part

I didn't hink I would be alone on this, wow! Even the player kind of agreed that it was sick.

Weapon Specialization is core, spell focus is core.

If you allow greater spell focus, shouldn't we allow Greater spell specialization and weapon focus? Or a feat that enhances rage somehow?

Why is Greater spell focus there in the first place?

I just have a hard time justifying it's existance. I must say I found it less disturbin on a high level invoker than on save or die kind of things. Damage is damage, but that stuff just seemed too: I cast this spell on him so he has a 90% chance of dying.

The examples with the raging orc play into my hand though now don't they? With Greater Spell focus a grey elf wizard would be able to "take out" the raging orc on anything but a 20!

And allowing greater Iron Will etc. does not balance this out either for obvious reasons.

Rav

 

[Dr. NRG]

In game mechanics terms, increasing saving throw DCs is not equivalent to increasing damage. It's equivalent to increasing your attack bonus to hit. An increased DC means the effect you are trying to achieve is more likely to occur, while an increased attack bonus likewise means the effect you are trying to achieve is more likely to occur. Think of it as heightening a spell versus empowering one.

I think the difficulty arises when you notice that methods for increasing saving throws are fewer and more expensive than methods for increasing armor levels. This is excacerbated (love that word!) by the fact that the effect you are trying to achieve in the case of many spells is likely to be pretty brutal in comparison to getting hit with a regular attack.

That said, I don't really think it's any more broken than things like common archer attack bonuses...

NRG

 

[Forrester]

Well, I don't have grey elves, so that is yet another bit of ease on the saves on my part

I didn't think I would be alone on this, wow! Even the player kind of agreed that it was sick.

You're not alone. It depends on the amount of magic in the campaign, but it's not unheard of for twinks to brag about their red wizard grey elves with 20 starting int and +6 Headbands of intellect with spell prodigy throwing around spells with save DCs of 127. Or whatever.

On the other hand, in a campaign with no spellcasting prodigy or red wizards or grey elves with a 25-point buy . . . I don't think it'll be quite as broken.

Your instincts are right, though -- enemies with a similar amount of HD should probably be able to make saves on rolls other than '20'. Certainly, that's a valid choice to make for your campaign, in which case Greater Spell Focus should probably be tossed. No big loss.

 

[hong]

On the other hand, in a campaign with no spellcasting prodigy or red wizards or grey elves with a 25-point buy . . . I don't think it'll be quite as broken.

Personally, I'd rather allow Spellcasting Prodigy instead of Greater Spell Focus, given the choice. +1 DC to all saves isn't as great as +2 to one, player-chosen, school (as if anyone's going to take GSF: Divination). SP also grants a few extra spells per day, but I can handle that.

 

[Xarlen]

Some things.

First of all, Grey Elves are the elves in the MM. SUN elves get the Int bonus.

Secondly, the Red Wizards of Thay (The PrC) would not let Elves in because they are very racist, and only allow Humans into their organizations; Prerequisits say that they have to be a Human from Thay.

So, someone's GMs are getting a little out of wack.

Sorry to bust up yon smack; try the Sun Elf Archmage if you must.