D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Hussar]

It is the Romani who decide which misrepresentations are offensive, not D&D players.

It is the Norwegians who decide which misrepresentations are offensive, not D&D players.

It is the Egyptians who decide which misrepresentations are offensive, not D&D players.

Etcetera.

Perhaps instead of trying to speak for “Norwegians” it might be far more helpful if you only spoke for yourself. Instead of trying to frame this as a societal issue, it might be helpful to frame this as what it is - you pushing your own preferences.

There’s nothing wrong with advocating for your preferences. But framing it as “agree with my preferences or you are a bigot” is a much steeper hill to climb that requires you to actually provide evidence that Norwegian people have been historically harmed by this depiction.

 

[Hussar]

The problem is @Yaarel, you are going about things backwards. You are pointing to the Rhennee and their association with real world Romani, and claiming that the same applies to Norwegians. But, you've skipped a LOT of steps there.

For one, we can look at real world bigotry towards the Romani and then compare that to the text in Greyhawk. The texts line up nearly perfectly. The original writers of the Rhenee basically took all the bigoted language from the real world and transplanted it into Greyhawk. ((Note, I am NOT commenting on intent here. Not in the slightest. Simply on what was done)) The same thing happened with the depictions of orcs in the game. The identical language was appropriated to describe orcs as was used to describe blacks. That's why it is so problematic. There's a clear line here from the real world verbiage to the verbiage used in the game.

There is not, however, a clear line showing that Norwegians are being negatively depicted in the Greyhawk texts. No reasonable observer thinks that Norwegians are Nazis. There is no program of discrimination against Norwegian peoples that I'm aware of. AFAIK, Norwegian people are not being lumped in with Nazis. Actual Nazis are being lumped in with Nazis, and some of them happen to be Norwegian, but, that's a totally different issue. Thus your issue with worries over Nazis and affiliated groups appropriating Viking cultural elements.

But, again, this isn't what's happening here. No one is going to equate Thillonians with modern day Norwegians. None of the language used in the game connects Norwegians to Nazis in anything but the most oblique way. You need to show that the language used to describe these in game elements directly harm anyone before you can claim that they need to be changed.

 

[Gradine]

AFAIK, Norwegian people are not being lumped in with Nazis. Actual Nazis are being lumped in with Nazis, and some of them happen to be Norwegian, but, that's a totally different issue. Thus your issue with worries over Nazis and affiliated groups appropriating Viking cultural elements.

I think this point definitely bears repeating. Definitely the idea that no Norwegian (or Norwegian-coded fantastical culture, such as it is) would become a racial supremacist (not even that the entire culture is, just individual members, as the Scarlet Order, as I understand it, is) is simply not rooted in actual reality. There are entire genres of nordic heavy metal that are proof enough of that.

To put an even finer point on it, the Scarlet Order and the Nazis may both be racial supremacists, but not all racial supremacists are Nazis. While it is true that "Nazi" has become a go-to descriptor of racial supremacists in real life, there are definitely racial supremacist groups out there that are very distinctly not Nazis.

 

[Parmandur]

I think this point definitely bears repeating. Definitely the idea that no Norwegian (or Norwegian-coded fantastical culture, such as it is) would become a racial supremacist (not even that the entire culture is, just individual members, as the Scarlet Order, as I understand it, is) is simply not rooted in actual reality. There are entire genres of nordic heavy metal that are proof enough of that.

To put an even finer point on it, the Scarlet Order and the Nazis may both be racial supremacists, but not all racial supremacists are Nazis. While it is true that "Nazi" has become a go-to descriptor of racial supremacists in real life, there are definitely racial supremacist groups out there that are very distinctly not Nazis.

The extra layer jere is that the Scarlet Order is based on the southern half of the continent, extremely removed from the viking-esque culture. They are linked by an ancient cultural migration, but not tied directly.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

@Hussar Prepare to be ignored by @Yaarel

 

[Yaarel]

The problem is @Yaarel, you are going about things backwards. You are pointing to the Rhennee and their association with real world Romani, and claiming that the same applies to Norwegians. But, you've skipped a LOT of steps there.

For one, we can look at real world bigotry towards the Romani and then compare that to the text in Greyhawk. The texts line up nearly perfectly. The original writers of the Rhenee basically took all the bigoted language from the real world and transplanted it into Greyhawk. ((Note, I am NOT commenting on intent here. Not in the slightest. Simply on what was done)) The same thing happened with the depictions of orcs in the game. The identical language was appropriated to describe orcs as was used to describe blacks. That's why it is so problematic. There's a clear line here from the real world verbiage to the verbiage used in the game.

There is not, however, a clear line showing that Norwegians are being negatively depicted in the Greyhawk texts. No reasonable observer thinks that Norwegians are Nazis. There is no program of discrimination against Norwegian peoples that I'm aware of. AFAIK, Norwegian people are not being lumped in with Nazis. Actual Nazis are being lumped in with Nazis, and some of them happen to be Norwegian, but, that's a totally different issue. Thus your issue with worries over Nazis and affiliated groups appropriating Viking cultural elements.

But, again, this isn't what's happening here. No one is going to equate Thillonians with modern day Norwegians. None of the language used in the game connects Norwegians to Nazis in anything but the most oblique way. You need to show that the language used to describe these in game elements directly harm anyone before you can claim that they need to be changed.

Those are not the reasons Egyptians protest the misappropriation of Egyptian heritage.

 

[Yaarel]

I think this point definitely bears repeating. Definitely the idea that no Norwegian (or Norwegian-coded fantastical culture, such as it is) would become a racial supremacist (not even that the entire culture is, just individual members, as the Scarlet Order, as I understand it, is) is simply not rooted in actual reality. There are entire genres of nordic heavy metal that are proof enough of that.

To put an even finer point on it, the Scarlet Order and the Nazis may both be racial supremacists, but not all racial supremacists are Nazis. While it is true that "Nazi" has become a go-to descriptor of racial supremacists in real life, there are definitely racial supremacist groups out there that are very distinctly not Nazis.

Heavy metal is nonracist. It is a celebration of local folkbeliefs across Nordic lands. Where American heavy metal sometimes leans into rebellious Antichristian devilish imagery, the Nordic genre instead sometimes leans into Prechristian viking imagery.

There are individuals who are N*zi "Germanic" racist, sometimes certain families. But this is fringe. Hopefully it remains fringe. This applies to any sector of life, not just music.

 

[Yaarel]

To express love for ones own identity groups is always good.

It gets complicated, each identity group can be required to tolerate other identity groups that differ from ones own groups.


All cultures are human constructs, in the same way that clothing fashions are human constructs. Identity groups help individuals actualize different facets of human potential.


In D&D, whether a culture closely models a reallife group or a utopian hypothesis, it needs to come from a place of love and respect.

If the culture is incapable of love and respect, then it is not human − thus is not a culture.

Most of the difficulties in earlier D&D characterizations, are because the descriptions didnt come from a place of love and respect.

When our settings and characters refer to an other reallife identity group for inspiration, it needs to come from a place of love and respect. At least for a moment, we can attempt to visualize a new world from the perspective of an "other".

The creature type "Humanoid" ultimately refers to different ways of being human.

 

[Yaarel]

A culture is holistic and fluid.

For a methodology to a create a D&D culture, I prefer to utilize the faction and background mechanic.

A faction can offer several backgrounds to choose from, including a unique background feat if self-evidently unique. Sometimes the same background, and background feat, can be shared by diverse factions.

Each background is a specific institution of some kind. A culture is like a deck of cards, where each card is a background. A culture can adopt new backgrounds and obsolete old backgrounds, thus adapt and evolve across places and eras.

Factions are a way to cluster various backgrounds within an ideological viewpoint and framework.


But a culture is holistic. It is more than the sum of its parts. There is always a transcendent humanity that is learning and inventing the useful backgrounds and updating or discarding the less useful backgrounds. This humanity is not reducible to any particular background. There is always the human that is acquiring and making new clothes and mix-and-matching and repairing them, or discarding outofdate clothes. The human is not reducible to any particular garment of clothing.

It is possible to appeal to this transcendent humanity of a culture to critique any particular background within a culture.

A faction can be assigned a D&D alignment, depending on the objectives of its ideological viewpoint. Whether a faction is Good or Evil or a Neutral mix, tends to correlate with its sensitivity and responsiveness to the humanity that is beyond any particular faction or any particular background.

 

[Gradine]

Heavy metal is nonracist. It is a celebration of local folkbeliefs across Nordic lands. Where American heavy metal sometimes leans into rebellious Antichristian devilish imagery, the Nordic genre instead sometimes leans into Prechristian viking imagery.

This is completely ahistorical; Nazi black metal literally started in Norway. I'm not saying that ever became mainstream, but that entire scene was, at least in the 90's, absolutely steeped in ethnic nationalism, racism, and anti-Semitism. One of those Norwegian Nazis went to jail for stabbing a guy to death and now writes racist RPG books. So it's there, even if held to the fringes.

But then, the Scarlet Order isn't exactly presented as mainstream itself.

What I am arguing here is that the suggestion that there would be elements of ethnic nationalism in a nordic-themed is not an absurd caricature steeped in anti-Norwegian racism, but a reflection of reality.