Group Dynamics: Min/Max vs RPers

[SuperJebba]

Hey, guys. I have been running a group for a number of years now. My frustrations as a DM and some group dynamics are starting to wear on me, so I need some advice.

I have 2 min/maxxers in the group and RPers who play DnD to be a hero and do cool stuff. The RPers optimize their characters but they are far from min/maxxers.

Over the years, the min/maxxers have gotten much better at it and now they completely dominate combat to the point where it isn't really fun for the RPers. I do run a number of more RP-oriented encounters, but combat is still a big part of DnD (and a fun one at that).

What do I do to balance this? I want the min/maxxers to have fun playing the game, but it's frustrating the RPers (and me for that matter). Is it possible to run such a group? Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[Dandu]

Are they cheating, taking advantage of ambiguous rules, or just very good?

 

[SuperJebba]

No, they are not cheating. They take advantage of poorly written rules and often utilize what are, in my opinion, ridiculous class combinations. I know a lot of their characters come straight off char op boards. Just your basic power gaming and min/maxxing.

I'd actually probably care a lot less if they came up with this stuff on their own.

 

[Dandu]

No, they are not cheating. They take advantage of poorly written rules and often utilize what are, in my opinion, ridiculous class combinations. I know a lot of their characters come straight off char op boards. Just your basic power gaming and min/maxxing.

I'd actually probably care a lot less if they came up with this stuff on their own.

Would you kindly let me know what everyone in your group is using? If you have online character sheets, please link them. It might help.

 

[SuperJebba]

I don't have online character sheets. Sorry.

First of all, I know they are both playing whisper gnomes; which as I understand are a broken base race.

One guy is playing a ranger 3/cloistered cleric of Fharlangan 1/scout 10. IMO, a cloistered cleric of Fharlangan is just ridiculous to start with. No cleric of that deity would ever be cloistered. He took the class in order to have access to all knowledges and the domain power that let's him take a move action as a swift action a certain number of times per day. He uses the knowledges to power the feat Knowledge Devoition (I think that's what it's called) so he can make a check on every thing we fight to do more damage. He dumps all his skill points into knowledges, hide and move silently. He is unable to do anything else a scout does all that well.

The other guy is playing a rogue wielding a spiked chain made of some kind of material that increases its crit modifier to x4. Again, a rogue with a spiked chain is absurd IMO. I just don't think a spiked chain has the precision to deal a sneak attack, but it technically works RAW. He also has a feat or prestige class that allows him to add his character to level or something along those lines to his damage. He hits ridiculously hard.

I only have one of the two RPers playing right now, but he is playing a wizard who focuses on enchantments. He has a solid feat progression, good gear and has spent the money to make sure he is equipped with a good enough supply of utility gear so he can survive. He has been effective in RP encounters, but combat is not real fun for him because the others absolutely destroy everything. It's not worth it for him to cast a spell.

Sorry I couldn't provide a bit more information.

 

[Dandu]

Er...

Whisper Gnomes are a powerful race, but I personally wouldn't consider them broken. The optimizers I hang out with place them between Human and Dwarf in terms of power.

Flavor issues aside, a Ranger3/Cloistered Cleric1/Scout10 is a well built skirmisher, but not overpowered. It's also built incorrectly as the best Swift Hunter build, as I understand it, favors Ranger levels over Scout.

A Rogue wielding a Spiked Chain is also not overpowered. Spiked Chains are one of the few exotic weapons that are worth the cost a feat, and should logically do better than a more common weapon. His feat that allows him to add his character level to Sneak Attack damage is called Craven, and it's powerful, but not overpowered. He's probably using a Kaorti Resin Spiked Chain to get the x4 crit multiplier. Again, good but not overpowered.

Both of these characters generally cry when the undead, constructs, plants, elementals, oozes, or anything that is immune to critical hits and sneak attack comes along because their precision damage is suddenly worthless.

Rogues can get wand chambers installed in their weapons to house wands of Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike that allow sneak attacks against some of the creatures mentioned above, but good luck installing a chamber on a chain. Swift Hunters can use skirmish on their favored enemies even if they are immune to precision damage... but with only 3 levels in Ranger he only gets 1 favored enemy, which is why Swift Hunter builds tend to have more Ranger levels.

Finally, even if you define these builds as overpowered.... the other player is a Wizard. A tier 1 class whose primary ability is to tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. While Enchantment is a bit of a weak school, it allows you to turn enemies into allies if they fail a weak save, or cause an enemy army to tear itself to pieces in a frenzy.

But, as they say, it's not what you have, but how you use it. I suggest you talk to your RPers about adjusting their tactics. You might want to ask the optimizers to tone it down, but it's easy to convey the wrong message with that, they're not using broken builds to begin with, and I've never been a fan of punishing competence. You should probably try talking to the RPers first.

Also consider changing your tactics as a DM. As noted, a lot of enemies are immune to precision damage. Granted, most enemies immune to precision damage are also immune to Enchantments, so just throwing out lots of undead probably won't help the situation, but it's something to keep in mind. Also, precision damage is negated if the target is [Concealed], so you could have a battle take place in a foggy area. Lots of spells generate fog, such as Fog Cloud. Others, like Sleet Storm, completely obscure vision.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Dandu has covered the mechanical side of things well, as he usually does, so let me address the flavor side of things and some of the finer mechanical details to help allay your concerns on that front.

I don't have online character sheets. Sorry.

First of all, I know they are both playing whisper gnomes; which as I understand are a broken base race.

Whisper gnomes aren't really broken per se, just very good for specialized stealth types. They get +2 Dex/-2 Cha over the basic gnome, have 30' move instead of 20' move, have darkvision and trade out the racial bonuses and SLAs for others--the +2 Dex, self-only silence, and full move are nice for a scout, but not exceptionally powerful in the grand scheme of things.

One guy is playing a ranger 3/cloistered cleric of Fharlangan 1/scout 10. IMO, a cloistered cleric of Fharlangan is just ridiculous to start with. No cleric of that deity would ever be cloistered. He took the class in order to have access to all knowledges and the domain power that let's him take a move action as a swift action a certain number of times per day. He uses the knowledges to power the feat Knowledge Devoition (I think that's what it's called) so he can make a check on every thing we fight to do more damage. He dumps all his skill points into knowledges, hide and move silently. He is unable to do anything else a scout does all that well.

A "cloistered" cleric does not necessarily mean one who spends his days reading in a monastery, merely one who "spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training." A cloistered cleric of Fharlanghn would be one who, for example, spent lots of time communing with his god on quiet walks in the woods rather than traveling the roads beating up brigands to protect travelers. Knowledge Devotion is a quite logical choice for a ranger, as well, given that they focus on knowing particular enemies particularly well and Knowledge Devotion is essentially the same but more so.

Power-wise, this build isn't particularly abusive, just a bit focused. And count yourself lucky that you have someone who at least goes for a flavorful build like Swift Hunter + cleric of Fharlanghn rather than something more obviously ripped off the CO boards. If you're looking for counters, remember that skirmish damage is precision-based, and that uncommon senses like blindsight and tremorsense can still detect him (assuming he didn't pick up the Darkstalker feat, which is likely, or you'd probably have noticed that already).

The other guy is playing a rogue wielding a spiked chain made of some kind of material that increases its crit modifier to x4. Again, a rogue with a spiked chain is absurd IMO. I just don't think a spiked chain has the precision to deal a sneak attack, but it technically works RAW. He also has a feat or prestige class that allows him to add his character to level or something along those lines to his damage. He hits ridiculously hard.

This one is a bit less flavorful, but still not too ridiculous. The feat is Craven, which adds +character level to sneak attack damage in exchange for a penalty to saves against fear, so there's that weakness, in addition to the usual weakness of crit-immune or -resistant foes. Also, I'm betting that Dandu's right and that special material is kaorti resin, a material created by Far Realms creatures who are quite secretive and wouldn't be likely to give their weapons to just anyone. Remember that just because something exists by RAW doesn't mean it's easy to acquire, so while a kaorti resin weapon isn't overpowered, you should feel free to ask him to swap it out if you weren't aware of the flavor implications and feel it's too much.

Also, remember that a sneak attack doesn't necessarily hit people precisely per se, it just hits a vital area when they're unable to defend themselves; sneaking up and smacking a big spiked ball on a chain into your skull will hurt pretty damn bad even if you're an inch or so off-center. Also, he had to spend a feat to use the spiked chain effectively. For that investment, I'd say it isn't too good.

I only have one of the two RPers playing right now, but he is playing a wizard who focuses on enchantments. He has a solid feat progression, good gear and has spent the money to make sure he is equipped with a good enough supply of utility gear so he can survive. He has been effective in RP encounters, but combat is not real fun for him because the others absolutely destroy everything. It's not worth it for him to cast a spell.

It's tricky to help out an Enchantment-based caster while hindering the other two, since precision immunity and mind-affecting immunity usually come together as noted above. Rather than introducing lots of undead and constructs, I'd suggest that your BBEG start using big, tough ECL+1 or +2 troops with DR, fast healing, and other physical defensive measures (miss chance and concealment as already mentioned would be good too, but you don't want to make the martial PCs completely useless) to mitigate the martial characters' damage output, as well as fairly powerful attacks to ensure that the other PCs have to worry about defense. That way, your martial characters have a challenge since they can't one-shot things anymore, and the enchanter can have fun occasionally turning enemies against each other.

I hate to keep echoing Dandu, but he's right: Your wizard could easily be outperforming the martial characters with the right tactics, so neither punishing the martial characters for doing well nor going too easy on the wizard is the right solution. While Enchantment isn't the strongest school out there, he doesn't have to be a pure enchanter; illusions, fogs, and such fit well into the "mystery and mental manipulation" niche. I'd suggest pointing the wizard to some wizard handbooks online or other spell selection guides to give him some tips on good wizard tactics. Just letting him actually act before the other two annihilate the opposition should probably be good enough, but we can always give more tactical advice if he needs it.

 

[Dandu]

A "cloistered" cleric does not necessarily mean one who spends his days reading in a monastery, merely one who "spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training." A cloistered cleric of Fharlanghn would be one who, for example, spent lots of time communing with his god on quiet walks in the woods rather than traveling the roads beating up brigands to protect travelers.

I would like to note, for the record, that from a flavor standpoint, a cleric of Fharlanghn who beats people up is also a little at odds with the god's stated goal of traveling and sightseeing.

Also, remember that a sneak attack doesn't necessarily hit people precisely per se, it just hits a vital area when they're unable to defend themselves; sneaking up and smacking a big spiked ball on a chain into your skull will hurt pretty damn bad even if you're an inch or so off-center.

Example:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSt_6cUHLYU&feature=related[/ame]

Just letting him actually act before the other two annihilate the opposition should probably be good enough, but we can always give more tactical advice if he needs it.

Like Celerity.

 

[aboyd]

I only have one of the two RPers playing right now, but he is playing a wizard who focuses on enchantments.

I'll assume that when you say he's focused on enchantments, you mean to imply that he actually specializes in it, so that he gets the bonus spells and other advantages. I personally hate the enchantment school, as almost everything has a save, and when the enemy saves, they usually suffer NO effect (as opposed to half damage). Also, under the magic rules it notes that if a person makes a saving throw, they are aware that hostile magic was cast upon them. This just makes the whole deal sucky, IMHO.

It's also one of the only schools of magic that gets overlooked in splatbooks. For example, there are NO 5th or 6th level enchantment spells in the Spell Compendium. Complete Mage, which came out after Spell Compendium and which you might hope has lots of options actually also ignores enchantment for many levels. If anything would help, your wizard really needs Mass Whelm from Player's Handbook 2 (10d6 nonlethal to 14 enemies), Freezing Glance from Frostburn (paralysis ray you can shoot as many times as you have levels), and Hiss of Sleep from Spell Compendium (powerful sleep, no HD limit).

Anyway, with such a PC, I would be throwing at him more puzzles, riddles, debates, dialogues, negotiations, and so on. Sure, he isn't going to shine in combat, but he picked the talky role playing spellcaster, so to me it's slightly a matter of "you made your bed, now lie in it."

Having said that, I believe there are ways to use his skills in battle. For example, if there is a mid-combat surrender, his character may be the right one to put together a peace settlement. It's still talky, but it IS going to happen in the middle of a fight.

Fear effects will get the enemies running, compulsion effects will get hostages to talk.

Or consider magical traps that, yes, can be disabled by the rogue (with real high rolls) but also can be short-circuited by a wizard that is armed with Dispel Magic. For example, I just used the magic missile trap in Dungeonscape (called an "encounter trap" because it requires all members of the party to help disable them). I had 4 small pyramids, one in each corner of a room. The door shuts & locks after they enter, so they're trapped. The tips of the pyramids begin to spin as if charging up, and then they unleash magic missiles. The fighter runs up to one and knocks the top off. The rogue runs up to one and uses Disable Device. But the wizard casts Dispel Magic and the other two shut down.

I know they are both playing whisper gnomes; which as I understand are a broken base race.

Their weight limit is 3/4 of normal, and all their weapons are small size (and so do less damage). At the level of play you're running, these notes are probably irrelevant, as they have ways to compensate (bags of holding, huge sneak attack bonuses, etcetera). But it's worth looking over the character sheets once to be sure it's all by the book.

He took the class in order to have access to all knowledges and the domain power that let's him take a move action as a swift action a certain number of times per day.

I would note that Fharlanghn offers no domain power that allows for a move action as a swift action. His domains are Balance, Celerity, Luck, Portal, Protection, Travel, Weather. And that's only if you allow lots of splatbooks. None of those domains offer such movement. It would make sense that the Celerity domain would offer access to the Lesser Celerity spell, which does grant movement as a swift action, but unfortunately that's not what the Celerity domain offers.

So I would start to scrutinize these min/maxers a little bit more.

A Rogue wielding a Spiked Chain is also not overpowered. Spiked Chains are one of the few exotic weapons that are worth the cost a feat, and should logically do better than a more common weapon.

Agreed. Feats are very rare and grant abilities that you shouldn't undermine. If they decided to spend one of their few feats on it, then that's an ability from which they should gain some benefit.

Both of these characters generally cry when the undead, constructs, plants, elementals, oozes, or anything that is immune to critical hits and sneak attack comes along because their precision damage is suddenly worthless.

I had written a reply that noted that many of these types of enemies will also be immune to the wizard's focus on mind-affecting spells. However, I can see that you edited your post to add mention of that already. So instead, let me note a few interesting monsters that will allow the wizard to shine while the rogue & scout have to work twice as hard to make an impact.

1. Elementals are immune to crits & flanking, but apparently are subject to mind-affecting spells.

2. Abrupt Jaunt wizards can use an immediate action to teleport away from an attack. Normal wizards & sorcerers can use Lesser Celerity to emulate that class feature. This would create enemies that can spoil a devastating weapon strike, but that would be vulnerable to mental charms. The naga sorcerer in the free module "Treasure of the Black Veils" was pretty fun, and could be easily modified to have celerity spells. Spells such as Stay The Hand, Sonic Shield, Invisibility, G'Elsewhere Chant, and Mirror Image will frustrate melee attackers, while leaving a spellcaster with area effects fully capable.

3. Get out of melee range, simple as that. These min/maxers can't do a whole lot to stop 10 archers standing 65' behind the tank, whereas the wizard has many ranged spells. Nor can they effectively deal with a fighter that uses a bow and the Ranged Disarm feat to cripple their attacks from a distance, while leaving the wizard capable. Though to be fair, it might be possible to use Ranged Disarm on the wizard's spell component pouch, at which point the wizard will be limited to spells with no components.

4. Consider enemies that are stupid but powerful. Why? Because the wizard can put them into a state of paralysis with a single low-level enchantment spell (Ray of Stupidity, Spell Compendium). Put them up against a Purple Worm (or many!) and watch as they either slog through dealing 200 HP of damage, or else allow the wizard to cast Ray of Stupidity once, rendering the worm unconscious. Why? Because the purple worm has a Intelligence of 1, the ray does at least 1 point of int damage, reducing intelligence to zero. Zero intelligence = catatonic. Other monsters roughly appropriate for your campaign: Dire Elephant, Twelve-headed Hydra, Tyrannosaurus, and Quetzalcoatlus (bonus: they fly, so let's see spiked chain hit that).

Good luck. Have fun!

 

[Empirate]

To me it seems like you do not vary your encounters enough. Things to consider:

1. Terrain. If the terrain is really bumpy, or there are lots of obstacles, movement gets restricted a lot. That allows ranged opponents to do their stuff better, and it stops the rogue from getting into flanking positions easily. The same applies if the opponents are on top of a slope or wall, or there is a ditch between the groups. Terrain that offers concealment (fog has been mentioned, I'll add underwater environments, dense undergrowth, magical darkness, smoky fires in the vicinity) stops precision damage cold.

2. Magic. Just about any opponent a 14th level group faces should have a few magical tricks up their sleeve. This includes defensive spells/items (to grant concealment, mirror images, invulnerability to crits etc.). It also includes offensive powers that target, for example, will saves. Your 'problem' PCs seem to have very, very weak will saves. Even a simple Slow or Glitterdust spell will take the fight out of them - not to mention Dominate Person or Confusion or Fear. Battlefield Control spells/powers are another way to go and spoil their party.

3. Opponents. Others have gone into this already: crit-immunes are a safe bet. Also consider turning the tables by using stealthy, hard-to-hit ambushers. Enemy spellcasters are always a good bet, and are sure to dominate any encounter at the level you're playing at. Many mooks capable of ranged attacks will simply take lots of attacks to take down - single, powerful blows won't do much here. Swarms are really nasty, and basically unkillable except with area effects. Teleporting, flying, invisible, high DR, regenerating creatures (read: Outsiders) are nasty for hit-and-run battles. Grappling monsters (HD-advanced Tendriculous, Behir, Purple Worm etc.) stop mobile warriors cold. Dragons... can do all of the above.

4. Tactics: Why do you let your opponents be flanked in the first place? Why do they even get into melee range in every battle? Try and fit your opponents' tactics to the terrain and their own powers. Ten archers all clumped up on a flat plain will get a few shots of, then be mown down. Ten archers on the other side of an obstacle, but with a clear line of fire, are considerably more difficult to deal with. A well-mixed opposing force including a battlefield control caster of some kind, a buffer/healer of some kind, and a tank or two, will be able to deal with one trick pony PCs like yours just fine, if you lay out their battleplan beforehand.

5. Puzzle Encounters: this sort of combat is more and less difficult than a normal one. More difficult, because you have to figure out how to solve them. Less difficult, if you can come up with the 'solution' quickly. Examples are: Disarm the otherwise nigh-invincible opponent of his extremely powerful weapon, and turn it on him. Use the pit traps you encountered earlier to lure the mighty-but-dumb opponent into them. Quench the fire the Iron Golem is standing in to deprive him of constant healing. Kill the enemy commander as quickly as possible, then his minions will surrender. Destroy the summoning portal before you are overwhelmed by otherworldly horrors. Ready an attack to grapple or trip the Greater Flyby Attacking, 200' movement opponent. Fight a Greater Blinking foe on the material and ethereal plane at the same time. Simply survive the supercharged magical construct's attacks for five rounds, then it'll blow up on its own. Etc.


Bottom line: variety is good for all concerned. Even if your 'problem' players aren't going to shine in every combat, they'll probably be enjoying themselves more if you put in lots of variety.