Gypsy knife-thrower

[Carpe DM]

Ok -- trying to make a twinked character for my wife, a gypsy knife-thrower. In true Smackdown fashion, I'm looking to be as abusive as possible within the *clear letter and spirit of the rules*. No "start with a Girallon" builds, please.

Also, early peaking is good -- that is, if you can get the major functionality of the character up and running by the 7-9th level range, fantastic. Waiting until 18th level for a major payoff won't work --those are good for theorybuilds, but not for actual gaming builds.

Right now, I'm thinking, as a crude start:

Rogue5
Invisible Blade 2
Master Thrower 1
Invisible Blade 3
Nightsong Enforcer 1
Shadow Thief of Amn 1


Now, to my question: I hear people talk about Master Thrower builds as being the be-all and end-all, but I don't see it. Is there *any* reason to go to MT5?

Is it that they think Palm-throw doubles the sneak attack dice? But precision damage is only applied once in situations where you have a single attack roll.

Is it that Weak Spot has some application that I haven't really thought of? Yes, touch attacks are awesome, but without power attack to make up the damage (and, indeed, no strength bonus) I just don't see MT5 playing a serious part.

Has someone done the math on this? Is weak spot worth the loss of +3d6 sneak attack?

 

[green slime]

I tend to find knife throwers/wielders are feat intensive, and as such, tend to chuck in a few fighter levels for good measure. Alternatively Ranger levels, for the two-weapon thing.

 

[BlackSeed_Vash]

Whisperknife from RoW is a decent weapon thorwing Prc, though it requires you to be halfling in order to enter.

 

[Nifft]

Have you considered Warblade or similar? Can be very good with thrown weapons or in melee.

Build: Human Warblade 18 / Fighter 2

Level / Class -- Feats -- Maneuvers
1/ Warblade 1 -- Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger) -- Moment of Perfect Mind (DM/Counter), Sudden Leap (TC/Boost), Douse the Flames (WR/Strike), Blood in the Water (TC/Stance)
2/ Fighter 1 -- Point Blank Shot
3/ Fighter 2 -- Rapid Shot, Precise Shot or Far Shot
4/ Warblade 2 -- Tactical Strike (WR/Strike)
5/ Warblade 3 -- Mountain Hammer (SD/Strike)
6/ Warblade 4 -- Weapon Specialization (Dagger) -- Leaping Dragon Stance (TC/Stance)
7/ Warblade 5 -- [Quickdraw] -- Insightful Strike (DM/Strike)
- - -
8/ Warblade 6
9/ Warblade 7 -- Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) -- Fountain of Blood (TC/Boost)

Character is up & running at 7th level. High mobility (can jump around a *lot*, with a high bonus), dangerous at range, dangerous in melee.

Note that you can use Blood in the Water and Fountain of Blood with ranged attacks just fine.

Also note that Lightning Throw is solid awesome, and you should grab a few Iron Heart maneuvers just to make sure you can get Lightning Throw, if you're playing that high level.

Finally, note that I'm not taking advantage of the "even level maneuver swap" class feature of Warblades. Starting at WB 4, you can "trade up" any maneuver you have for any maneuver you qualify for.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Korak]

How do you feel about shuriken?

That's the real question. If you throw shuriken instead, you can wrench a ton more damage out... with a few buff slots from the party arcanist... or from your own cohort if needed.

 

[Ed Gentry]

While it's true that the palm toss doesn't double SA damage, you still do massive damage. Correct me if I'm wrong on this build:

Human Rogue4/MT 5

Feats:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-weapon fighting
Rapid shot
*Others by choice...recommend PBS, specialization, etc.

Skills:
Sleight of hand like mad

Full attack:
2 regular attacks from BAB
2 extra attacks from TWF chain
1 from Rapid shot

Each attack throws 2 daggers (palm toss) at touch-attack to hit.

So that's 5 daggers at 1d4 + 2d6 and 5 daggers at 1d4 (the palm throw) each attack.

That's a maximum possibility of 100 damage a round. So an average near 50, no?

That ain't shabby at all when you consider that you don't have to be right in the melee.

I really think the main bonus is the touch attack.

The big weaknesses: DR basically poofs the dagger damage AND throw this character against a construct or undead and they're useless.

Carpe, as you know, I just finished playing a Rog 9/MT 5 in one of my games. I was dealing out TONS of damage but if I ran across a zombie...forget about it.

 

[Carpe DM]

Interesting --

I'd have to do some serious thinking about whether throwers can pick up extra attacks from both the TWF and the Rapid Shot chains. If they can, oy.

But, even taking the build at face value, you're looking at giving up 15d6 (5d6 at 9th level for regular rogue - 2d6, multiplied across five attacks) to pick up 5d4. Am I nuts here?

And, doesn't MT take a +5 BAB?

 

[Ed Gentry]

I think the trick with the trade off is:

1) Touch attacks are just tasty
2) You can sneak attack more easily with an MT than with a rogue. All you have to do is have your sleight of hand check beat the opponent's spot check. That's not difficult at all if you focus on the the SoH skill.

A regular rogue's SA ability is situational. With the MT, you make the situation as you see fit in order to get the SA damage.

I certainly wouldn't say it's an ideal set up, but for someone wanting the throwing flavor, I think it's pretty cool.

 

[Dirigible]

In true Smackdown fashion, I'm looking to be as abusive as possible within the *clear letter and spirit of the rules*. No "start with a Girallon" builds, please

Rogue5
Invisible Blade 2
Master Thrower 1
Invisible Blade 3
Nightsong Enforcer 1
Shadow Thief of Amn 1

Does belonging to two different thieves guilds fit within the letter and spirit of the rules?

 

[Felon]

Here's what the Master Thrower can do for you:

1) Doubletoss will allow you to make two attacks as a standard action. you will get precision damage on both, as they are not a single attack. Good for a rogue in the surprise, great for a scout any round.

2) Palm Throw will not allow you to double-dip precision damage (this is the one the errata covers). It's something to use if your daggers are buffed with non-precision damage bonuses (poisoned flaming daggers, for instance).

3) Sneaky Shot will give you a way to sneak attack from range, something that is very hard for a rogue to pull off after the first round of combat.

4) Two With One Blow lets you smack two targets with one attack roll. Another great ambush tactic. Combine with doubletoss to hit four guys on the surprise round. In a full round of attacks, with 2WF, I2WF, and Rapid Shot, you'll be hitting more guys than you can fit within a 30 foot range.

5) Weak Spot pulls it all together. Now you can take penalties for 2WF, Rapid Shot, 2 w/1 Blow, range icnrements, and whatever the heck else you want and still hit like mad.

6) And let's not forget Improved Evasion and Improved Crit as little extra perks.

For a gypsy concept, keep scout and swashbuckler in mind.

Not sure what Invisible Blade will do for you that a Master Thrower won't.