D&D 4E Handling godhood in 4E

[S'mon]

I read your pdf document on monster damage. I am not sure I entirely agree with the changes you made to Elite and Solo monsters. Rather than up the damage you should just give them more actions/attacks. But I suppose I can post in the other thread.

I find you need to be careful with damage, and stick closely to the 4e suggested range, which works in standard increments. An Elite can do At-Will damage that would be 'Limited-High' for a standard monster, that is +50%, and Brutes do +25%, so an Elite Brute can do +75%. If the Elite Brute is doing Limited attacks that can be another +50% tops, or +125%. For a non-Brute it should be +100%, ie at most double the standard damage expression for a monster of its level. I recommend that as a rule of thumb no single non-Brute attack should be doing more than double standard damage for a creature of its level. Solos should get multiple attacks, preferably spread over multiple initiative counts, rather than a single massive-damage attack.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

I find you need to be careful with damage, and stick closely to the 4e suggested range, which works in standard increments. An Elite can do At-Will damage that would be 'Limited-High' for a standard monster, that is +50%, and Brutes do +25%, so an Elite Brute can do +75%. If the Elite Brute is doing Limited attacks that can be another +50% tops, or +125%. For a non-Brute it should be +100%, ie at most double the standard damage expression for a monster of its level. I recommend that as a rule of thumb no single non-Brute attack should be doing more than double standard damage for a creature of its level. Solos should get multiple attacks, preferably spread over multiple initiative counts, rather than a single massive-damage attack.

Surely you are contradicting yourself here:

1. Stick closely to 4E suggested range.
2. Buff that up 75+% at your leisure for Elites.



Surely a better approach (for elites) would be to give them either:

1. An attack which targets two separate enemies.
2. Two attacks when bloodied.

With multiple attacks you have a better chance of hitting. Secondly, you can potentially do more damage, but generally spread across multiple opponents.

 

[S'mon]

Surely you are contradicting yourself here:

1. Stick closely to 4E suggested range.
2. Buff that up 75+% at your leisure for Elites.

No, I don't think so. 4e suggested range is:

+25%-+50% Limited
+25% if High (ie Brute)
& Let Elites At Will as if Limited

So Elites do +150% as standard, Elite Brutes do +175%.

Then Limited Elite attacks do +25%-50% over that, again, so the extreme case of an Elite Brute single-target Encounter Power does +225%.

If you look at monster vault creatures, the Owlbear elite brute has an attack routine that has 2 claw attacks vs a single target that are each High (125%), then if both hit spend AP to double that with auto-hit beak attack, so it does quadruple High - quintuple damage - off 2 attacks, or effectively 250% standard damage on each of 2 attacks, 500% total. I'm being pretty conservative by comparison. If it stuck to the guidelines above, which are derived from the guidelines WotC give, then the most it could do with attack-AP-attack would be 225% (Limited High special attack) plus 175% (standard At Will attack) for 400% of standard damage.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

No, I don't think so. 4e suggested range is:

+25%-+50% Limited
+25% if High (ie Brute)
& Let Elites At Will as if Limited

So Elites do +150% as standard, Elite Brutes do +175%.

Then Limited Elite attacks do +25%-50% over that, again, so the extreme case of an Elite Brute single-target Encounter Power does +225%.

Where is this from?

If you look at monster vault creatures, the Owlbear elite brute has an attack routine that has 2 claw attacks vs a single target that are each High (125%), then if both hit spend AP to double that with auto-hit beak attack, so it does quadruple High - quintuple damage - off 2 attacks, or effectively 250% standard damage on each of 2 attacks, 500% total. I'm being pretty conservative by comparison. If it stuck to the guidelines above, which are derived from the guidelines WotC give, then the most it could do with attack-AP-attack would be 225% (Limited High special attack) plus 175% (standard At Will attack) for 400% of standard damage.

I'd just be guessing but 500% damage to me sounds like an auto-kill...?

Are all the elite monsters built like that, because I don't recall encountering any so powerful in MM3.

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!

Where is this from?

I'd just be guessing but 500% damage to me sounds like an auto-kill...?

Are all the elite monsters built like that, because I don't recall encountering any so powerful in MM3.

I think the owlbear is unusual in having the triggered bite auto-hit.

Hm, looking over page 185 DMG it has "allow an elite to make an additional attack on its turn" - which doubles damage output, quadruple with AP if you allow a double attack with standard action, or a much weaker "Recharge encounter power when bloodied" option. But "select one of the creature's encounter powers. It can now use that power at will" is under Creating Solos.
Mathematically though +50% damage on a x2 hp creature is what you need to get the total threat level = to 2 standard monsters. By allowing 2 attacks as per owlbear they make it more than twice as dangerous.

That 4e uses a consistent +% breakdown I think was noticed either by Sly Flourish or the MM3 on a Business Card guy, it doesn't seem to be explicit in the books or errata I have. The designers seem to be afraid of %s and averages, they would rather give sample damage expressions and make people retro-engineer the formulae.