Has the Vancian Magic Thread Burned Down the Forest Yet? (My Bad, People)

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It doesn't feel like magic.
It doesn't even feel like a science.
It's not a magic system. It's a mechanic system.
I dislike non-Vancian magic because of how it disrupts the flow of combat and adventuring. When the:
  1. casters are out of PP
  2. casters are fatigued
  3. caster has a big penalty to his magic skill roll
  4. caster has been slapped with a rune of anti-magic
  5. caster's truename has been revealed
the party stops.
Such broad strokes for such an enormous variety of non-Vancian magic systems.

All of them, so that all the world can bask in the glory of Vancian magic. They shouldn't mind because- even though its not superior to any other system- its every bit as good as the systems they prefer. And they could always HR their non-Vancian system back in, of course.
Except I am not making the argument for a single magic system to be in place for all systems, am I? Hopefully you would not dare to cheaply mischaracterize my argument in such a fashion. Especially not someone as level-headed as you, DA. So I fail to see how your hypothetical would be analogous to the situation we are talking about.

I think it rings pretty true.

Coke is a company that has many, many products, to be sure, but the one everyone knows is Coke. If you were to say to them that you don't like their primary product because of the flavor, thus, it should be changed, you'd have to convince them this is a good idea.

WotC has other products, but the one name with real brand power is "D&D." You don't like the flavor of Vancian magic. That's all well and good, but if you want it changed, you need to do some 'splainin.
I think it rings falsely for the reasons I explained. Should I keep the Coke analogy in mind for when a hypothetical someone complain about 4E? Again, it's a line of reasoning that does not give people hardly any room to want game changes. As the implied solution amounts to "STFU and play some other game."
 

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First of all, how does the argument "It makes D&D unique and flavorful!" add any weight whatsoever to the "burden of proof"?

This is basically another way of saying, "I like it!"

But here's my reasons why the "status quo" should change:

1. At its base level, Vancian casting reduces the sum total choice for its use to two things: spells and slots. Its design is to create a resource/use/consumption mechanic that aids making "interesting game choices," but in many cases the only interesting choice that gets made is: Which spell do memorize, and what slot does it take (based on metamagic)?

Let's take something like Mage Armor.

In D&D 3.x:

-It lasts 1 hour per level

-It takes a standard action to cast--with zero chance of failure unless you get interrupted/damaged in the act of casting.

In essence, the sum total cost to use this spell and gain its benefits is a first level spell slot, and a standard action. And with a duration based in hours, circumstantially, all it takes is a character to say, "I cast mage armor," for the rest of however many encounters they face that day, it happens.

Now take Savage World's essential spell equivalent, "Armor."

-It takes an action to cast.

-It requires a skill check to cast successfully. If double 1's are rolled on the caster check, it fails automatically, you lose the spell points for casting it, and you potentially take damage.

-It lasts a grand total of three rounds.

-It takes 2 power points to cast.

-You can increase the duration one additional round for 1 additional power point spent.

Now from the player's perspective, the 3.x option is the far, far, far preferable alternative. You choose the spell, you cast Mage Armor, and unless your wizard is getting the snot beat out of him or another wizard tries to dispel it at the exact moment he casts it, he or she automatically gets the benefit.

But consider the tactical use case changes that the Savage Worlds version adds to essentially the identical spell:

1. It only lasts 3 rounds. Not 3 hours, 3 rounds. Meaning, when I the player choose to have my character cast it, I'd better have a darn good idea how I'm going to use it. The tactical usage scenarios get a lot more interesting when the player doesn't get to just press the "On" button for a near-permanent armor bonus.

2. There's no guarantee that it's going to work at all when I do cast it. And the less proficient I am at casting, the greater the probability. Compare that to D&D--doesn't matter if I'm the lowliest of lowly magic users with an 11 intelligence, that spell just works. The end.

3. I can choose to increase the duration at the cost of my remaining stores of magical power--but it's only 1 round per point spent. I could, of course, choose to simply let it lapse after 3 rounds and cast it again, but oh wait, there's chance that the 2nd time I cast it it doesn't even work.

4. If I critically succeed at my magic casting Trait check, (aka, get a raise), the spell actually works better than if I just have a normal success. Now I am incentivized to build my character to more effectively use magic not just to avoid failure, but because maximizing success actually means something.

5. If I fail the Trait test--i.e., roll snake eyes on both trait check dice, it backfires, and something not good happens (usually potential injury).

Based on this difference in use case, what does that do to me, the player actually wanting to play the caster?

1. It means I am wholly, totally invested in making my character the best damn magic-user I can, because I want my chance of failure to be as low as possible, and to increase my potential for critical success. "Using magic" suddenly takes on a whole new tactical and in-play flavor because, well, if I screw up, it's not just a "ho hum, lost that 1st level spell slot." If I screw up, I hurt myself. And if I critically succeed, I get a little more than I bargained for.

2. My "Mage Armor" spell is no longer a semi-permanent bonus. "I cast mage armor, the end," simply doesn't happen in Savage Worlds. And if a wizard uses two 1st-level slots in 3.x, it changes from a "spell" to effectively an "always on armor bonus." Now to some people that may be the actual point, I suppose. And yes, it's a choice by the player to use or not use those particular spell slot resources. But the Savage Worlds scenario takes a spell that by and large is taken for granted and turns it into something that requires more thought, planning, resources, and tactics from the player. And to me, that's a very, very good thing.

In 3.x, Mage Armor is a largely static, unchanging choice, that has no implication on future use throughout the entire course of the character's in-game life. It works exactly the same at first level, and exactly the same at 20th. "I want a +4 to my AC, so I memorize mage armor as one of my 1st level spells, because it's foolproof, it always works, and I can even cast it on a friend if I need to."

Why not just permanently give the magic-user the +4 armor bonus and be done with it? And that's certainly the logic 4e took in this instance by essentially leveling out defenses to a certain degree. The cost-to-effectiveness ratio for this particular spell is almost nil. At the cost of 1 spell slot, I get X. Always. Forever.

Of course, some will simply say, "Fine, then play Savage Worlds," which is a valid answer, I suppose, but the idea here was to point out that there can be significant changes to the overall feel and structure of a magic system that create different, interesting choices. And Vancian magic in its current iteration (I do realize that I could houserule it) does not have the same ability to model the same types of interesting character and tactical choices without some massive restructuring.

But another reason to not simply play Savage Worlds all the time is because I happen to like a lot of the 3.x rules structures. I like feats. I like the general feel of class progressions. I like the campaign settings and modules based on the 3.x rules, and don't always want to have to convert them on the fly to another system. As a GM, there are a lot of compelling things about the 3.x rules. They're supported. They're popular. The industry's best producer of modules and adventures actively supports it.

And I'd like it even more if Vancian casting wasn't the default.
 
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Maybe it would, but why does it matter for D&D? D&D was designed with a Vancian magical system. It's one of the quintessential elements that has defined D&D compared to other fantasy RPGs. Would the Mona Lisa be the same if she were changed to have bushy eyebrows and be a guy? Bushy eyebrow men could for good portraits, right?

Vancian magic isn't that core to D&D. It's one aspect of one class (in the original rules). 4E certainly isn't vancian and while many old timers may not consider it D&d for that or similar reasons, others do.
 

But not all or necessarily most. ;)

Perhaps, but there were enough to take the OP by surprise ;)

Fair enough. But it does not even feel like a pseudo-science to me. It feels strictly like an artificially constructed game mechanic to me. There is no 'magic' to this magic system.

Spell points are not an artificially constructed game mechanic, I suppose? Nor the building blocks of an Ars Magica like system?

True for other magic systems, no?

Never said it wasn't. How is that even relevant? There is no disparagement of other magic systems here.

The difference is what's gained, namely a more 'magical' flavor to the magic that more closely mirrors fiction, myth, and fantasy.

How how can you say that with any authority outside of personal preference? It only applies for a specific kind of magical flavour. Vancian also reflects only a specific kind of magical flavour. Myth, fantasy, etc rarely even touch the surface of how magic actually works... leaving this vague is part of what makes it mysterious.

It allows for a greater breadth of worlds to play in than those limited by the assumptions of Vancian magic.

How does that number compare to the number of non-D&D fantasy novels that use Vancian magic?

How many novels use spell points? It is behind-the scenes. Also, as I keep saying, vancian can be used alongside other systems just fine. Please read my posts more carefully so I don't need to repeat myself.

Again, many of these things could be said for other magic systems as well. Would it really be hard to research or create new spells in other magic systems? For example, I've seen players create plenty of new spells for their characters in True Sorcery or True20. They even chose to use spellbooks for their characters.

Read my post again. I said essentially the same thing myself right there adter the list. You're missing the point. This is a defense of Vancian (which you requested), not an attack on anything else (which you did not request and neither I nor anybody else here undertook).

Arguments such as...? But which game systems would pro-Vancians be changing to Vancian magic?

None. That's precisely the point. Pro-vancians are not the ones begrudging anyone else's preferences here.

In summary... (for the umpteenth time)


Vanican works fine. Lots of people like it. It captures only a certain type of magical flavour. So it has a place in the game. Other systems work fine too. They also capture only a certain type of magical flavour. They can also have a place in the game. That place need not (and should not) replace vanican magic... because it works and lots of people like it.
 

Such broad strokes for such an enormous variety of non-Vancian magic systems.

Not really: one of your complaints against Vancian magic is that when the casters can't cast, the party stops, interrupting the flow of the game.

All I did is show that other magic systems have the same issue- namely that casters can be prevented from casting, either because they've run out of the magic casting resource particular to the system or they've been prevented from casting by an outside force.

And if you stop because a Vancian caster can't cast (assuming Vancians dominate the party structure), you're probably going to stop if a non-Vancian caster can't cast either (if non-Vancians dominate the party structure).

IOW, its not a problem of Vancian casting, its an artifact of playstyle.

As for the rest, those are the self-same reasons you gave for ditching Vancian magic...and they're equally valid leveled against any other system.

Except I am not making the argument for a single magic system to be in place for all systems, am I? Hopefully you would not dare to cheaply mischaracterize my argument in such a fashion. Especially not someone as level-headed as you, DA. So I fail to see how your hypothetical would be analogous to the situation we are talking about.

3.X has a variety of systems in place. Most casters are Vancian, but you can find different styles in Psionics, Incarnum and classes like the Warlock, Shadow Caster, TrueNamers and Binders.

With that in mind, why do we need to reduce the number of Vancian casters at all? What ARE you arguing for?

Should I keep the Coke analogy in mind for when a hypothetical someone complain about 4E?

Most certainly. Its equally valid for you to use the Coke analogy if someone advocates ditching AEDU in favor of a return to Vancian casting in the game's next iteration.
 

Soft drinks are not game systems.
It's an analogy, Aldarc.
Plus, if you take this line of reasoning to its extent, then there is little in a system which you can make an argument for changing or improving. Because there are "already other flavors of Coke out there, as well as scores of other sodas." But such a line of reasoning is not productive for the very discussions we have on this forum regarding things we want out of a system.
The existence of those different flavors and other sodas, or alternate magic systems for D&D and treatments of magic in other roleplaying games, is the result of productive discussion, not, "I don't like it so it should go away."
For example, let's play around with another substitution based on some recent threads of late: 'I can't stand 4E class powers, so WotC needs to change the flavor of 4E to something I like."
That argument is no better.
 

Vancian magic isn't that core to D&D. It's one aspect of one class (in the original rules). 4E certainly isn't vancian and while many old timers may not consider it D&d for that or similar reasons, others do.

4E isn't Vancian? Only if your definition of Vancian includes "no abilities that can be used at will," which seems like a weird thing to focus on.

By my definition, which is "ready a spell in advance, use it and lose it, can't use it again until you rest and re-ready," 4E has not only retained Vancian casting but expanded it to every class including non-casters.
 

Perhaps, but there were enough to take the OP by surprise ;)
Quite true.

Spell points are not an artificially constructed game mechanic, I suppose? Nor the building blocks of an Ars Magica like system?
Ah, yes, but I'd say it's a matter of what the mechanics are attempting to emulate. So game mechanics can be made to feel intuitive and an "organic" aspect of magical metaphysics. Spell points are like the HP of magic.

Never said it wasn't. How is that even relevant? There is no disparagement of other magic systems here.
Because the "advantages" of Vancian magic cannot necessarily be claimed to be unique to the Vancian magic system and there are other advantages that non-Vancian systems have that cannot be replicated by a pure Vancian magic system.

How how can you say that with any authority outside of personal preference? It only applies for a specific kind of magical flavour. Vancian also reflects only a specific kind of magical flavour. Myth, fantasy, etc rarely even touch the surface of how magic actually works... leaving this vague is part of what makes it mysterious.
Myth and fantasy may rarely show how magic works, but do you think most people would identify Vancian magic as being the prevalent form of myth and fantasy?

How many novels use spell points? It is behind-the scenes. Also, as I keep saying, vancian can be used alongside other systems just fine. Please read my posts more carefully so I don't need to repeat myself.
Spell points basically represent a mana pool or the amount of magic from which a mage can draw before being "tapped out" of magic. That's quite prevalent.

I do agree that Vancian magic can be used alongside other systems, but the problem is that its only really applicable to one class, yet other classes are constrained by the application of the whole. Plus, I think that a mixed Vancian magic system, would be far more flexible and organic than a pure Vancian magic system.

Read my post again. I said essentially the same thing myself right there adter the list. You're missing the point. This is a defense of Vancian (which you requested), not an attack on anything else (which you did not request and neither I nor anybody else here undertook).
My apologies then.

None. That's precisely the point. Pro-vancians are not the ones begrudging anyone else's preferences here.
In DA's hypothetical, he has said that pro-Vancians would be changing all game systems to Vancian.

Vanican works fine. Lots of people like it. It captures only a certain type of magical flavour. So it has a place in the game. Other systems work fine too. They also capture only a certain type of magical flavour. They can also have a place in the game. That place need not (and should not) replace vanican magic... because it works and lots of people like it.
If I could make an addmendum: Vancian works fine for some people. All too frequently, the magical assumptions of Vancian magic is not compatible with the sort of worlds I want or mages I want for my worlds. But in D&D, the cleric, the wizard, the druid, the ranger, the paladin, the sorcerer (to an extent), all operate using the same magical assumptions.

It's an analogy, Aldarc.
I know how analogies work, The Shaman. But my point is that they are not analogous.

The existence of those different flavors and other sodas, or alternate magic systems for D&D and treatments of magic in other roleplaying games, is the result of productive discussion, not, "I don't like it so it should go away."That argument is no better.
Again, "I don't like it so it should go away" is often the underlying argument in edition discussions and criticisms of game systems despite the existence of other game systems that address the issue. As it stands now, Vancian magic is something I dislike and want changed about D&D.
 

4E isn't Vancian? Only if your definition of Vancian includes "no abilities that can be used at will," which seems like a weird thing to focus on.

By my definition, which is "ready a spell in advance, use it and lose it, can't use it again until you rest and re-ready," 4E has not only retained Vancian casting but expanded it to every class including non-casters.

In the strict sense, the daily power is the only Vancian aspect of 4E. Everything else recharges on quanta small enough compared to classic D&D to not feel very Vancian to me. You can call it how you like but 4E is at best a very dilute Vancian system. The basic principle is that you can do nearly all your "stuff" every encounter; the exception being your dailies. That is not the basic principle of earlier D&D magic systems.

Note, I don't like Vancian systems much and think the 4E system is superior so I am not knocking 4E. I like the fact that the magic users have as much useful stuff to do in a day as the the warriors, no matter how many encounters occur in a day.

For one thing, systems that let PCs mostly/entirely recharge between battles mean that there isn't a big difference in balance between casters and non-casters depending on how many battles the referee tends to have in a day.

Myself, for my own reasons of aesthetics and sense of what is reasonable, I tend not to have too many battles in a day. This means that systems that rely on casters running out of spells to provide balance with respect to non-casters don't necessarily work well for me. I don't run enough combats to soak up their spells and they can let loose more than what the game was tuned for. In systems where every new encounter starts everyone out basically an equal footing, this isn't an issue.

Vancian, pre-4E magic clearly, to me, had the former aspect: casters had finite magic that ran out over the course of a day and non-magic users didn't. In 4E, by design, everyone has an equal amount of stuff to bring to the table and runs out at the same time. Does that fit all concepts of magic? Certainly not but does it make a level playing field across the character classes? Absolutely. As a gamer, I prefer the latter.
 

In DA's hypothetical, he has said that pro-Vancians would be changing all game systems to Vancian.

You missed my point, which is that if it is OK for you to lobby for changing a Vancian-centric game to non-Vancian, its equally OK for others to lobby for changing non-Vancian games to Vancian, using the exact same arguments you've asserted to support your position.

This thread is titled what? "It's Time for Vancian Magic to Go Away." Of course people who like Vancian magic are going to bristle a bit. How well do you think a thread entitled "GURPS: Magic needs to be entirely Vancian." would fly over on SJG's boards?
 

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