D&D 5E Have the designers lost interest in short rests?

[Don Durito]

Did they change the Rune Knight so runes no longer refresh on a short rest?

Yes. I believe so.

Which means I would just play a Battlemaster.

 

[Istbor]

Unsure if there was a survey on this, but it could be adapting to how the customer uses the product. Meaning, if they have data on how many people use whatever number of short rests in their groups, it could indicate that the 6-8 encounter day while an assumption, is not the typical in play.

I certainly don't define the groups encounters by that. I build several encounters, and have a table for more random ones ready, but if the group doesn't really seek out or play in a way that would lead to these encounters, they won't see them in a given session.

So perhaps this is a more focus way of balancing power and not a general disinterest?

 

[Don Durito]

It would seem a poor solution to the issues to avoid new short rest features just because people aren’t following the rest schedule when we’re stuck with short rest classes in the core rules.

Would be better to put more emphasis on alternate rest structures and to foreground that in some of their adventures.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Yeah reducing them to 5 minutes and capped at 2/day would help. Kinda like that rule.

I'd have no problem with allowing any number of short rests, but the first two only take 5 minutes. After that a short rest takes an hour.

 

[Bacon Bits]

It would seem a poor solution to the issues to avoid new short rest features just because people aren’t following the rest schedule when we’re stuck with short rest classes in the core rules.

Would be better to put more emphasis on alternate rest structures and to foreground that in some of their adventures.

No, I disagree.

People are avoiding the short rest schedule because they don't like the difficulty level of the 6-8 encounter schedule. The nickel and dime encounter strategy tends to create a lot of encounters which aren't challenging, and a lot of groups don't find that very fun. When the game tells you to play in a way that people don't fine fun, they will rightly ignore it. Doubling down on what people are avoiding will just push them away.

 

[nevin]

No, I disagree.

People are avoiding the short rest schedule because they don't like the difficulty level of the 6-8 encounter schedule. The nickel and dime encounter strategy tends to create a lot of encounters which aren't challenging, and a lot of groups don't find that very fun. When the game tells you to play in a way that people don't fine fun, they will rightly ignore it. Doubling down on what people are avoiding will just push them away.

dead on . People always ignore rules that get in the way of their fun.

 

[ph0rk]

No, I disagree.

People are avoiding the short rest schedule because they don't like the difficulty level of the 6-8 encounter schedule. The nickel and dime encounter strategy tends to create a lot of encounters which aren't challenging, and a lot of groups don't find that very fun. When the game tells you to play in a way that people don't fine fun, they will rightly ignore it. Doubling down on what people are avoiding will just push them away.

If someone is willing to let me play a 5 minute adventuring day game with a battlemaster that starts with three uses of action surge, three attacks a round, GWM, and 15 superiority die at level 11.... Okay.

I strongly suspect the downloaded nova build paladin in that scenario would be a bit miffed.

 

[Asisreo]

No it’s not because as you said, that variant makes long rests into an hour and I do not, plus as you said I put a cap on short rests which means that rather then being essentially the same the same they are actually extremely different except in one superficial respect.

The goals are completely different, ‘Epic heroism’ is a lazy attempt to create change the feel of the game, while mine just means short rests are easier to justify in the fiction so I have don’t have to sit through tedious discussions about whether it’s safe to take a short rest, and ensure that the game continues to play as intended.

I'm not saying you were wrong to adjust it and I get where you're coming from.

The point I'm making is that any barrier of Long Rest/Short rest mechanics are arbitrary because time itself is arbitrary in the game.

If the players can't find the an hour of time because the DM said "40 minutes pass but a monster shows up," its the same if they need 5 minutes of time because the DM can say "2 minutes pass and a monster shows up." Really, its just how the DM decides to pace things that really determines what happens.

I'm still really confused why it has ever been a problem for people about 2-3 short rests a day. I don't think that was the designers intention (let's not get into that) but even if they were, it seems like a problem that naturally resolves itself assuming an active dungeon and not just a lair with 3 stationary creatures.

 

[Don Durito]

No, I disagree.

People are avoiding the short rest schedule because they don't like the difficulty level of the 6-8 encounter schedule. The nickel and dime encounter strategy tends to create a lot of encounters which aren't challenging, and a lot of groups don't find that very fun. When the game tells you to play in a way that people don't fine fun, they will rightly ignore it. Doubling down on what people are avoiding will just push them away.

Then maybe it's time for 6th Edition. Or at least a revised Players Handbook with different class design.

You make a good point.

I can manage the 6 to 8 encounters and make it work, but it's not easy and it involves completely changing the rest schedule and calling on a lot of GMing experience, but I suspect I'm in the minority. (In fact, I think most DMs don't even understand the intended design).

However, we're stuck with that schedule unless they plan to make some kind of revision. And the issue is that balancing x times a long rest feature vs existing short rest features runs into problems if we're not still assuming 6 to 8 encounters a day. The revised Rune Knight looks that way to me. I wouldn't pick one over the Battlemaster if there really is a full day as assumed by the core rules, but if there's not it becomes more appealing. The new Blademaster and the issues people have with it seem similar. Is it intended to be used most combats? The occasional combat?

If the designers have lost confidence in one of the central pillars of their original design then some kind of revision is in order.

 

[Don Durito]

I'm not saying you were wrong to adjust it and I get where you're coming from.

The point I'm making is that any barrier of Long Rest/Short rest mechanics are arbitrary because time itself is arbitrary in the game.

If the players can't find the an hour of time because the DM said "40 minutes pass but a monster shows up," its the same if they need 5 minutes of time because the DM can say "2 minutes pass and a monster shows up." Really, its just how the DM decides to pace things that really determines what happens.

I'm still really confused why it has ever been a problem for people about 2-3 short rests a day. I don't think that was the designers intention (let's not get into that) but even if they were, it seems like a problem that naturally resolves itself assuming an active dungeon and not just a lair with 3 stationary creatures.

I think it's because you're thinking about it as a matter of DM pacing. The timing can be arbritrary but fictional time does matter.

It works better when the players pace the rests. That's why it's a concrete thing and not an arbritrary judgement call by the GM. In 13th Age the GM decides when a long rest happens (after roughly 4 battles) and I found it was quite disempowering to the players. The short rest also corresponds to the 'milestone' in 4E which was generally two encounters (but again DM judgement call).

And in a lot of cases it doesn't really make sense for a whole hour to pass without an incident. The DM can arbritrarily declare that there are no encounters but if they do that then that signals to the players that the DM may be willing to bend the fiction to allow them to rest.

But discussion on whether or not a location is safe enough for a short rest are tedious, as are questions like "can we take a short rest?" by which the players usually mean "nothing urgent seems to be happening right now, but we don't know if you're planning for something to happen momentarily so we need to ask". Given that it's meant to be primarily a strategic decision on the players' part as to how to manage their resources, it's easier just to adjust it fictionally so it's in their hands.