Have you been disillusioned by Eberron?

[Glyfair]

I do agree that the Sharn representation has been good, but I'd like to see them move on, now, to other regions. I haven't picked up Five Nations yet, but based on reports it's on my list.

One thing I'd like to see is what's been done with the Five Nations book. There are a lot of named areas that little has been covered. I like that areas are open to DM interpretation. I'd like to see books cover an overview of a large area (such as a specific nation), and only a few areas nailed down.

I particularly like that they are definitely taking a proactive "your world might vary" attitude. Who is the Lord of Blades? Well, here are his stats right here. Wait, here is a contradictory backgroud here. Here's another one.

Some will argue this is just to make the LoB a mysterious figure. However, I think the intent in this is to make Eberron a mysterious setting. Players who fight Fzoul can point to his stats in the FRCS and expect that to apply. Players who point to the LoB stats don't have that expectation. Sure DMs have latitude to change an NPC (and most probably even make minor tweaks), but it's all about expectations.

 

[fuindordm]

Example: I created a hobgoblin wizard NPC (who the PCs have, unknowingly, avoided about six times). I love him, as a character, because of his family background (i.e. he is a descendent of a specific semi-famous Hobgoblin (that I made up) who did not betray House Denith when the rest of the hobgoblins did and was killed for it. I've made it a bit vague as to why this father figure fought the rebels but the point is that his son is very intently focused on the idea of honor and that his father was honorable while the rest of his race wasn't. The House has taken extremely good care of the hobgoblin's sons (partially because they want to obviously reward loyalty, partly because the son is gifted, and partially because he's a hobgoblin and they need to remain more in touch with the Hobgoblins they are stuck continuing to use for missions). So he's had the best of everything including going to the best magical colleges in Aundair, etc.
He's engaged in an almost quixotic quest for lost goblinoid artifacts (backed by the House) that would let him gain a measure of say in a new hobgoblin kingdom that he is strongly ambivalent about on a personal level.

This character, and people like him who are motivated by connections to the merchant houses and kingdoms of the world are virtually impossible to "port" to another setting.

That's a great PC or NPC idea. Yoink!

As to porting to another setting... this isn't unique to Eberron. Any setting with a strong history will engender characters that are difficult to place in another setting. Eberron does not require you to make such characters, but it enables it for those who like to do so.

Ben

 

[fuindordm]

Well, I ask because the discussions I've had with my friends over Eberron disillusionment center largely upon two main things:

A) Eberron is inconsistent. Eberron is suffering from power creep, it requires careful coordination of all of the book material and the Keith Baker-provided information in order to do it "properly," it is terrible at providing context for other WotC books, its setting elements are jarring and do not fit properly together; thus, Eberron is inconsistent.

I haven't seen any sign of power creep yet.

It requires no more DM skill than any other setting; in fact, I've found it to be remarkably DM-friendly. The world is large enough that anyone can find a story in it to interest them. The constant flow of information from KB is just gravy, and hardly essential.

It it remarkably adaptable at providing context for other books, as the Eberron Expanded web series should prove. Feats, monsters, classes, prestige classes, spells, and magic items are easy to place. The only category of rule expansion that is not so easy is new PC subraces; KB has stated several times that he doesn't like them, and that he prefers his races to diverge culturally rather than game-mechanically.

2) Eberron is not real D&D. Eberron contains robots, it includes psionics, it violates the notion of definite alignment, it violates the notion of very present deities granting spells, it violates the idea of segregated races, and other such sacred cows; thus, Eberron is not D&D.

Eberron feels more like D&D to me than Forgotten Realms, which feels like the D&D version of Disneyworld and Epcot Center. It feels more like D&D to me than Greyhawk, which bears too many scars from being one of the first of its kind. Eberron feels like D&D to me because it gives all of the core rules a societal context, and provides numerous places to include non-core material. If the world really worked as the core rules described, it would look like Eberron.

It's true that the warforged, lightning rail and airships all contirbute to a techno/anime feel. This can be a turnoff for those whe prefer traditional fantasy. I felt a bit of that myself at first, but it didn't take long for me to embrace it. The lightning rail and airships allow you to place adventures all over the continent and get the party to exotic places quickly. The new, far from being robots and mutants, allow for some fascinating role-playing opportunities that are hard to explore with the traditional stereotypes.

Take a closer look at the features of Eberron that you find disconcerting, and you'll find that they always give much more than they take away.

Another example: "Dinosaur-riding halflings? That's not traditional fantasy! Dinosaurs have no place in a medieval society!!" BUT... it enables mounted combat for small characters. It gives halflings a point of racial identity and pride that twenty years of Dragon articles never achieved. Who wants their hero to ride a german shepherd? But a fast, vicious dinosaur--that's cool. A flying dinosaur--even cooler. Halfling paladin with a celestial dinosaur mount? Tasy!

Eberron is definitely D&D.

Ben

 

[Dave Turner]

Overall, I like Eberron, except for the psionics implementation. I think it's fair to suggest that Eberron mentions psionics, but doesn't integrate it one bit.

One of the things that Eberron is usually praised for is that it has incorporated the practical existence of magic into the setting. There is every indication that psionics has been around as long as magic but its presence is nonexistent. You can point to Sarlona and suggest that psionics is not developed in the main book because the core book focuses on Khorvaire. Is there some kind of anti-psionics shield that prevents inhabitants of Khorvaire from developing psionic powers?

There's no setting-based reason why psionics only develops in Sarlona. The human beings who colonized Khorvaire came from Sarlona. Did they consciously exclude psions from their "Mayflowers"? Did the humans who colonized Khorvaire come from a pre-psionic Sarlona? There are no rule-based exceptions for which races or cultures can choose a psionic class, i.e. it ain't just for kalashtar.

Psionics is mentioned in the core book, but it's almost laughable to suggest that Eberron has integrated it into the setting. There are glaring inconsistencies (of which I've only named a couple) in the text that indicate that psionics has been given its usual cursory glance.

 

[Glyfair]

There's no setting-based reason why psionics only develops in Sarlona.

Psionics in Eberron has two primary sources. The first is the Quori. Except for the Kalashtar, the major Quori influence is in Sarlona. The Kalashtar are somewhat insular. They tend to keep the Quori war to themselves. You can see the "Ask Keith Baker" thread for his views on why they do this.

The other is Xoriat and Khyber. It's not as heavily tied into psionics as the Quori. By that I mean, if you are dealing with the Quori you can expect that you'll be dealing with Psionics. If you are dealing with Khyber you might have to deal with psionics.

Any other appearance of psionics, if there are any that aren't connected, they are very, very rare.

From a metagame aspect the reason is more simple. Some people just don't like psionics. The setting is set up so that they can ignore or remove psionics and not have to make major alterations to the setting. Psionics is integrated into the setting, it's just not omnipresent in the setting.

 

[Teemu]

Did the humans who colonized Khorvaire come from a pre-psionic Sarlona?

This is pretty much your answer. Obviously, the real reason is that psionics aren't core, so they can't expect everyone to have the rules for them. Plus, many people dislike psionic stuff, and if the main continent, Khorvaire, had heavy psionic presence, those people would be turned off.

Anyhow, when did you miss all the Kalashtar, Inspired, Dal Quor, the dreaming minds, Xoriat, the Cults of the Dragon Below, etc. stuff? It's very easy to use meaningful and extensive psionic elements if you so desire. And if you check out the Sharn sourcebook, you'll find out that the Dreaming Dark is pretty active in the City of Towers...

 

[Glyfair]

Another example: "Dinosaur-riding halflings? That's not traditional fantasy! Dinosaurs have no place in a medieval society!!" BUT... it enables mounted combat for small characters. It gives halflings a point of racial identity and pride that twenty years of Dragon articles never achieved. Who wants their hero to ride a german shepherd? But a fast, vicious dinosaur--that's cool. A flying dinosaur--even cooler. Halfling paladin with a celestial dinosaur mount? Tasy!

Also, one of the major sources of inspiration for Eberron are the pulps. One of the major pulp subgenres is the "Lost World" adventure. It's not traditional medieval fantasy, but it certainly is fantasy.

Which makes me wonder how this ties into someone's suggestion it was primarily marketed at "10-15 year olds." How many 10-15 year olds are big fans of the pulps or the classic noir that Eberron draws much of it's inspiration from?

 

[Dave Turner]

Psionics in Eberron has two primary sources. The first is the Quori. Except for the Kalashtar, the major Quori influence is in Sarlona. The Kalashtar are somewhat insular. They tend to keep the Quori war to themselves. You can see the "Ask Keith Baker" thread for his views on why they do this.

I am aware of nothing written for Eberron which states that you must possess a Quori soul fragment (like kalashtar) or exposure to the Quori in some way to be psionic. If that exists, then I would probably modify my stance a bit.

I'm not familiar with the Ask Keith Baker thread. Could you point me to it?

From a metagame aspect the reason is more simple. Some people just don't like psionics. The setting is set up so that they can ignore or remove psionics and not have to make major alterations to the setting. Psionics is integrated into the setting, it's just not omnipresent in the setting.

Psionics isn't integrated into the setting the same way that magic is. There are no "psiwrights", no consideration for what some 2nd level clairsentient powers can do to make magic-based investigators (like the Inquisitive prestige class) utterly obsolete, there is no mention of how soulknives are ideal assassins, and a few other concerns. I understand that there is a meta-game reason for limiting the impact of psionics, but I don't think that Eberron should be praised for its handling of psionics when it is no more impressive than it has been in any other non-Dark Sun setting.

 

[Dave Turner]

Anyhow, when did you miss all the Kalashtar, Inspired, Dal Quor, the dreaming minds, Xoriat, the Cults of the Dragon Below, etc. stuff? It's very easy to use meaningful and extensive psionic elements if you so desire.

I understand that I can add psionics to my Eberron game. But I can do that to any non-Dark Sun setting. That doesn't cut Eberron any slack when it comes to psionic integration in the setting.

Eberron examines the impact of magic on how a society might develop. At the same time, psionics exists but its impact is ignored. This strikes me as inconsistent and disillusioned me (the thread topic) on Eberron somewhat.

Is it plausible to suggest that the nations of Khorvaire ignored a possible weapon for use against their enemies in the Last War like psionics? If psionics exists in Khorvaire, which the core book suggests it does, then why wasn't there a psionics arms-race to exploit this "hidden" or "secret" weapon? It's because the handling of psionics was bungled, hamstrung by the concerns that mainstream D&D players hate psionics.

The writers of Eberron would have been better off not mentioning psionics at all to avoid the glaring inconsistencies in its actual treatment. The metagame concerns with psionic prejudice made a hash of the actual psionic materials in the book.

 

[Belen]

"I never said that you were wrong in liking the setting."

Just that your tastes are childish if you do so.

But heaven forbid if you take offense at that assertion. Lawdy, no certainly none was intended. Perish the thought.

I never once said that anyone was childish for playing or liking Eberron. However, it seems some of you are acting that way by reading things into my comments that do not exist.

Eberron fanboys should grow a thicker skin and realize that someone that dislikes their pet setting does not mean an automatic insult to you.