Have you found Bo9S characters to outshine other classes?

Arkhandus

First Post
IS and GIS don't do more damage on crits. They specifically replace all damage from your attack with a Concentration check result. It can still count as a crit, but it won't do more damage because of the way IS and GIS are worded (and their wording matches the intent of those two strikes' design, far as I recall). This is just because of how they replace your damage rather than adding to it or changing it; they just outright replace it altogether.

Side-note: There are far too many things in 3.5 called 'insightful strike'. They really need to vary the names a bit more. :\
 

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Aaron

First Post
Rystil Arden said:
I won't include the Fighter in this analysis because you claim they should be 'more powerful than a core Fighter' by definition, a concept with which I greatly disagree
But that's what the authors think .
mike mearls said:
I'm glad that people like the book, and I'm also glad that people have reacted in a way that we hoped they would. Namely, that warriors need a boost compared to spellcasters.

Back when 3e first came out, the fighter class was really interesting. It got a ton of feats. Something like triple as many feats as anyone else. I clearly remember my first 3e fighter, a Beorn Battlehelm. Beorn was really fun to play up until around level 8. At that point, I figured out that I couldn't find any feats to really improve Beorn's main focus: two weapon fighting with a flail and battleaxe, with some tripping thrown in for good measure.

The problem with making fighters rely on feats is that feats are also available to all the other classes. Furthermore, feats never had a level structure comparable to spells. A "better" feat just had a long list of prereqs, and there were no guidelines on just how good a feat could be. Thus, feats tended to cluster around the same power level.

In walks the fighter. His class features are feats. Since all feats are roughly the same power, and there is little additive effect outside of trip builds, he very quickly plateaus in terms of effectiveness. It would be as if a wizard still had spell slots for levels 1 to 9, but spells were never more powerful than a 3rd level effect.

There have been exceptions, but in general it's hard to make a fighter who's relevant at high levels. IME, most people who manage to pull it off rely on magic item combos and trip-based builds.

Nine Swords reverses this trend by building combat maneuvers that, at high levels, are on a power curve equivalent to (though not the same as) spells.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
No problems in play.

The guy who thought his Swordsage would PWNHAX was somewhat disappointed.

Cheers, -- N
 

iceifur

Explorer
SteveC said:
[snip] At that point, I end up trying to hit my opponents to activate different strikes, combined with generating extra temporary hit points to keep myself standing. [/snip]

One thing worth noting (if you haven't already) is that nowhere in the feat's description does it say you actually have to hit your opponent when using Stone Power to generate temporary HP. It is nice that even if you miss with your strike or attack (perhaps due to the penalty from Stone Power), you still get the HP benny. ;)
 

blargney the second

blargney the minute's son
I've seen all three classes in play. While they definitely do shine brightly every once in a while, they don't outshine anybody else at whatever their chosen niche is.
 

brehobit

Explorer
I've seen the swordsage and crusader in play (mostly swordsage). The swordsage was disturbingly powerful. This was during levels 3-6 or so.

Mark
 

RigaMortus2

First Post
I've seen a low level WB in play, he was the first to die, but that is because he was cocky and jumped in between 2 rogue NPCs who flanked him to death.

I've seen a low level SS in play, he was effective, but not over powered.

I've seen a 6th level Crusader in play. Some of his attacks were pretty heavy, but he was the only tank, so I had no Fighter to compare him to.
 

Playing a Human Warblade w/ a greatsword in a friend's D&D game. Last week we finished the initial village portion of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

Rest of the party is as follows (average character level is 7th)

Drow Rogue (no dual scimitars, no panther pets, and no angst)
Human Paladin (using Swan Knight PrC from Savage Land's Paladin/Monk splatbook)
Dwarf Cleric (with the Destroy Undead ability from EtCR)
Gnome Wizard/Conjuration specialist (got gacked in the church encounter due to a flubbed saving throw; talking about either a duskblade or sorcerer for next character)

Been playing the guy for a few months (started out at 5th level), and my character has shined at his specific role of being the party beatstick.

Do I outfight the Paladin? Yes, but then again the Paladin's player is cool with this because she's more about being the party tank and protecting the less hardy characters. But then again the Warblade is designed primarily to be a direct-damage melee machine, aka party beatstick.

I'd agree with others' sentiments that a Warblade looks downright awesome on paper, and that in play it's a somewhat different affair.

As for outshining, it depends the kinds of situations the party finds themselves in. For those that know about the opening session of the EtCR module, the dwarf cleric was in full glory. During social encounters from past sessions, if the Paladin doesn't have the NPCs on her side, then the Drow Rogue has them eating out of her hand, while I just muddled along (put a few points into Diplomacy). If the Rogue can set-up a sneak attack, her damage output can rival my Warblade's. DM learned that letting the two of us set-up flanking spells loads of pain for the poor sap playing monkey-in-the-middle.

I guess my answer to the OP's question is yes, provided those other classes are competing in the same niche as the Bo9S class. Same is true for trying to out-tank a Knight, or a fighter/caster trying to outdo a Duskblade, or any other class trying to muscle in a specific class' primary turf.
 

Rolzup

First Post
The party that I'm running for right now is composed of (all eighth level):

Binder.
Druid -- gains and casts spells as a Favored Soul, at the player's request.
Ranger/Rogue/Assassin.
Rogue/Duskblade/Crusader.
...and straight Warblade.

It's that damned Duskblade who's done the most damage, but that was BEFORE his Crusader levels. He's mainly famous for delivering a really nasty strike and then dropping a turn later. He's usually at negative HP at least twice in any given combat.

The Warblade, interestingly, started life as a Fighter/Marshal. Warblade fit the character concept much better, and has proven much more effective in play. He's DAMNED hard to take down, but not impossible. And his chief strength lies in making the REST of the party more effective. When they listen to him....

I've not had any problems with any one character outshining the others. I'll certainly not hesitate to allow the Bo9S stuff in play.
 

shilsen

Adventurer
Rolzup said:
It's that damned Duskblade who's done the most damage, but that was BEFORE his Crusader levels. He's mainly famous for delivering a really nasty strike and then dropping a turn later.

And it should be noted that the really nasty strike comes from True Strike + PA rather than from the Crusader maneuvers.

He's usually at negative HP at least twice in any given combat.

Hey, I resent that! I'm usually at negative HP only once in most fights. Going down twice a fight happened only once. Okay, twice - but it shouldn't count when you kick my ass with an NPC that I helped craft. Or something like that.

The Warblade, interestingly, started life as a Fighter/Marshal. Warblade fit the character concept much better, and has proven much more effective in play. He's DAMNED hard to take down, but not impossible. And his chief strength lies in making the REST of the party more effective. When they listen to him....

Again, it's worth noting that him being hard to take down has much less to do with the Warblade aspect and more to do with him being a dwarf with a full-plate and shield and a starting Con of 20.

I've not had any problems with any one character outshining the others. I'll certainly not hesitate to allow the Bo9S stuff in play.

QFT.
 

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