D&D 5E Have you moved on yet? Has Wizard's handled this properly?

[delericho]

That told us all we needed to know. Most of them wanted to play 'D&D' but couldn't because of all the problems they had with the 4E system. But given the chance, they'd come running back once WotC got the system in order. The brand holds that much sway over us. 'D&D' is preferable over 'Pathfinder' for a good number of those players, if both games are comparable enough to get the gaming experience out of it that they want.

I suspect that the brand has some power, but it serves mostly as a tie-breaker when other things are equal.

So, if D&D is 'better' than Pathfinder, D&D wins. If Pathfinder is 'better' than D&D, Pathfinder wins. But if D&D and Pathfinder are equally 'good', D&D wins the tie.

(However the individual defines 'good' and 'better', which will differ from person to person.)

But... it's not even as simple as that. There are a significant number of Pathfinder fans who now have significant loyalty to Paizo. It's probably not enough for D&D to now merely equal Pathfinder for those players - it would need to actually be better, and perhaps even significantly better, to persuade them to switch. Quite what percentage of PF fans that refers to, and just how much would be required to shift them, are open questions, of course.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

AFAIC, nothing to move on from really. NEXT is a constantly fluctuating playtest subset of a unfinished rules manuscript. I see cool things, I see dead people. I could never make a final decision based on the mess it currently is.

I quite agree. Actually, even before Pathfinder came out I was becoming disillusioned with 3E and though it had some interesting bits PF didn't exactly cure the ills I saw. 4th was never going to be my cup of tea and never moved to that either. I drifted BACK to 1E and have been there since. Not playtesting 5E and reading only minimal topics about it - doubtful about it's appeal to me once it's ready in a couple years.

I do not think their goals are obtainable, despite what seems to be genuine goodwill to the entire D&D community.

Have to agree with that aw well. Laudable goals to be sure but the ability to please everyone with just one game? Not gonna happen IMO.

the design team has absolutely no clue what is important to the OSR/Grog crowd,

That, I DON'T think is true. It's not that hard to grok what's important to the OSR crowd. I think the problem is that they don't want to go that direction. It's harder to sell stuff to the OSR crowd since a LARGE chunk of OSR attitude... advocates for self-reliance, is I suppose a way to put it. WotC wants a game they can sell once and continue to sell support for in a constant stream. If you're doing Old School correctly you don't need nearly as much support once you get going.

 

[darjr]

I think the folks I game with are probably going to stick with Pathfinder. There are a ton of reasons, many of them have nothing to do with the game itself, for many the game is just 'good enough' and familiar.

I think that there are key non-starters for each set of editions fans that 5e contains. Also the changes made to 'back off' from many of those changes don't seem to satisfy, it seems like they mostly just keep the feature and add 'options'. I don't think that will work to win over other editions fans. I have a few examples from a 1e to 3.5/Pathfinder fans perspective, but I think I see some from other perspectives.

Bringing up some of those issues feels like whistling into the wind. I can hear the whistling, sort of, but it's a ton of work that might be better spent somewhere else with more satisfying results.

 

[DEFCON 1]

But... it's not even as simple as that. There are a significant number of Pathfinder fans who now have significant loyalty to Paizo. It's probably not enough for D&D to now merely equal Pathfinder for those players - it would need to actually be better, and perhaps even significantly better, to persuade them to switch. Quite what percentage of PF fans that refers to, and just how much would be required to shift them, are open questions, of course.

Sure, there are now diehard Pathfinder fans who won't switch. But who cares? There were hardcore GURPS fans who left D&D at one point and haven't come back. Just like there were hardcore Vampire fans who left D&D at some point and also haven't come back. But we don't care about them. They made their choice... so be it.

But that is only a percentage of the PF population. The other PF players will play both PF and D&D. Or switch back and forth. Or come back to D&D entirely if/when they discover the new D&D is game they now want to play.

You just can't dismiss everybody who isn't playing D&D right now as someone not worth creating a game that they might like. Every RPG player is a potential D&D player, if the game is good and has things they like. But to arbitrarily rule out a whole mess of players under the misguided belief that the game must "move forward" along the 4E path (as Kobold Boots would have us believe)... is ridiculous. Especially considering a large swathe of 4E rules, ideas and mechanics were originated in 3E (or earlier) to begin with!

 

[pauljathome]

. So forum discussion is dominated by folks who have reason to be unhappy, and the folks who just get glee out of being dissatisfied and negative.

I'm not sure how true that is, actually. If you look at discussions of 13th Age or Hillfolk (2 games that have been announced and playtested but aren't quite available yet) the overall feeling is overwhelmingly positive. And my memory of the Pathfinder open playtests was that most people were positive even while lots of posts concentrated on perceived problems.

What I'd love to know (and never will, of course) are the 3 really interesting data points
1) What is the trend line in terms of number of people playtesting DndNext? I'm guessing its going down (pretty much to be expected at this point) but haven't a clue how quickly it is going down
2) What is the trend line for the overall satisfaction for the playtesters
3) How well do the playtesters represent the target audience?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I suspect that the brand has some power, but it serves mostly as a tie-breaker when other things are equal.

That depends. In some cases, brand an even be THE deciding factor in choice, other conditions equal or not.

Infamously, New Coke was a well researched product. It did exactly what it was supposed to do: beat Pepsi in blind taste tests. It also beat Coke's original formula in similar tests, even within the subset of people who described themselves as Coke drinkers.

Yet when New Coke replaced Coke, it failed to win over the classic recipe market.

While you could claim the test data collection was skewed, there was no indication of that. In addition, those who were interviewed claimed that New Coke was not what they wanted when they wanted a Coke. The flavor, however improved, did not match the brand ID.

 

[Cybit]

I think people realize the game is two years away, and say, oh, in 18 months, when the 3.5 chassis of PF starts weighing on people more and more (as even my super hardcore PF player roommates are starting to run into), and people have been playing an edition for 5 years, and then this new shiny thing is coming out...business will pick up, as it were.

PF is in its prime (3 years)...just be patient and let things play out. People are posting about the "transition" to a new game system 2 years before the system ACTUALLY COMES OUT.

The issue isn't with Wizards or Paizo, it's with extraordinarily impatient people who have a zillion ways to entertain themselves now and far less time.

 

[delericho]

1) What is the trend line in terms of number of people playtesting DndNext? I'm guessing its going down (pretty much to be expected at this point) but haven't a clue how quickly it is going down

Mearls says in his latest article that it's going up. Furthermore, the text of the article talks about how this indicates that people aren't leaving the playtest. So if he's actually talking about the simple number of people who have ever signed up (rather than the numbers actually downloading and/or responding to surveys), that would be fundamentally quite dishonest.

And I don't see any reason to accuse him of that.

That depends. In some cases, brand an even be THE deciding factor in choice, other conditions equal or not.

Infamously, New Coke...

Ah. When I said "the brand", I was referring specifically to D&D and to the present time. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I think people realize the game is two years away, and say, oh, in 18 months, when the 3.5 chassis of PF starts weighing on people more and more (as even my super hardcore PF player roommates are starting to run into), and people have been playing an edition for 5 years, and then this new shiny thing is coming out...business will pick up, as it were.

PF is in its prime (3 years)...just be patient and let things play out. People are posting about the "transition" to a new game system 2 years before the system ACTUALLY COMES OUT.

The issue isn't with Wizards or Paizo, it's with extraordinarily impatient people who have a zillion ways to entertain themselves now and far less time.

This is a great point and in my opinion valid.

I'd also think that a key part of the playtest is to generate commentary like what's in this thread at places where a lot of gamers congregate.

1. It's far better to let the community blow off steam prior to release than to let it build up to release and have it all blow at once.

2. Some designers value quick opinions as part of the process; and I don't know of any other site that has as much potential wisdom or feedback than this one, regardless of the possible wackiness it could generate.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

For me, 3.5Ed is still my D&D of choice, and I'm in an enjoyable 4Ed game...with at least 2 other solid 4Ed PCs created & ready to run.*

When 5E is released- and not a moment sooner- I'll decide whether to buy it.

But I don't see myself as "moving on"- not only do I tend to keep playing old games if given the opportunity, I think 5Ed has too big of a shadow to emerge from in the shape of 3.Ed.

That said, I'd rather they keep playtesting than release something incomplete, inconsistent, or incoherent, even if it means a year+ delay. Hasbro might not see it that way, though...








* not to mention a back catalog of 2Ed & 3.5Ed PCs as well

Well when I say "moving on" I meant to another game, I was referring to any game whether it's old or new.