Healing Skill Check On The Dying

[jrz069]

PHB p. 185 says you can attempt a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize a dying character, and doing so doesn't change their hit point total.

It also says you can attempt a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use their second wind. Page 295 (Healing the Dying) says that if a character receives a healing effect that requires use of a second wind and has none, they are restored to 1.

So why would you ever attempt a DC 15 to stabilize when you could attempt a DC 10 that, at worst, brings them to 1? I can't find anything stating that a skill does not generate an "effect", nor that the DC 10 application of Heal only applies to conscious characters.

 

[Mort_Q]

A Heal Check that allows you to use a Second Wind without using an Action, isn't a Healing Effect. If they don't have a Healing Surge left for the Second Wind, nothing happens.

 

[webrunner]

The Heal second wind sepcifically says "can use their second wind" - not "can spend a healing surge" or anything like that. I think the fact that theyr'e unconsious would prevent them from being healed in that manner.

Alternatively, it DOES take away the use of the second wind, so if they already have used it (say, to keep from falling the first time, but didn't actually succeed in not falling) the heal check is useless.

 

[James McMurray]

If you don't have a healing surge, you can't use Second Wind, so can't be put to 1 hit point. And no, the heal skill is not a healing effect, as it does not have the Healing keyword.

 

[jrz069]

While I think those are good arguments, I don't see anything in the text to support either. The text does not say "healing power" it says "healing effect" and I don't see any reason to believe that the result of a skill check is not an "effect."

While an unconscious character can "take no actions" they're not taking an action in this situation. It's not even clarified as a free action to receive this healing.

Obviously the intent was to disallow the DC 10 Heal check as a stabilizing action, but there's no text here disallowing it.

James, please re-read, the post (and the PHB being quoted) state that if you have no healing surges you are restored to 1 hit point.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

PHB p. 185 says you can attempt a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize a dying character, and doing so doesn't change their hit point total.

It also says you can attempt a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use their second wind. Page 295 (Healing the Dying) says that if a character receives a healing effect that requires use of a second wind and has none, they are restored to 1.

So why would you ever attempt a DC 15 to stabilize when you could attempt a DC 10 that, at worst, brings them to 1? I can't find anything stating that a skill does not generate an "effect", nor that the DC 10 application of Heal only applies to conscious characters.

The above is incorrect. It states if it requires you to use a Healing Surge and you have none you are restored to 1. The DC 10 Heal check can only work if they haven't used their Second Wind in that encounter yet.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

The above is incorrect. It states if it requires you to use a Healing Surge and you have none you are restored to 1. The DC 10 Heal check can only work if they haven't used their Second Wind in that encounter yet.

This. Second Wind =/= Healing surge. The heal check allows the target to spend a second wind, which allows them to spend a healing surge. The heal check does not directly allow the spending of a healing surge.

 

[Donatello]

A second wind is an action that is useable once an encounter. An unconscious character cannot take a second wind normally. The heal skill DC 10 allows the character to take a second wind without spending an action, therefore an unconscious character could do it, but it does not give them another second wind (third wind?).

Most unconscious characters probably already spent their second wind earlier when trying to avoid becoming unconscious in the first place. You can have plenty of healing surges left but still not have a second wind.

The DC 15 check is for unconscious characters that have already used their second wind.

Allow me to illustrate some scenarios;

1) Fighter A is unconscious and dying. He used his Second Wind in the fight, but has 8 remaining surges. Make the DC 15 Heal check to prevent him from dying. The DC 10 check is unavailable because he already used his Second Wind. If he receives a healing effect that allows him to spend a surge, it acts as normal.

2) Fighter B is unconscious and dying, but was made so in a fast ambush before he could act. He still has his Second Wind available to him. Make the DC 10 Heal check, he spends his Second Wind (without the defensive bonuses) and is back in the fray.

3) Fighter C is out of surges, and began the combat with none. He is now unconscious and dying. The DC 10 check will give him the chance to spend his Second Wind, bringing him to 1 hp. He had no surges, so he could not Second Wind during the fight to any real effect, so the chance to use it to brin ghim to 1 hp is the best choice.

4) Fighter D used his last surge in a fight to Second Wind, and is now unconscious and dying. The DC 10 check is again useless, as he already Second Wind'ed this encounter. The DC 15 check is his only hope.

Remember, "Second Wind" and "spend a surge" are not equal. "Second Wind" is a standard action, useable once per encounter, that allows you to spend a healing surge.

 

[occam]

1. A dying character is unconscious, and an unconscious character can take no actions.
2. The "Use Second Wind" option of the Heal skill allows the target to use a second wind without spending an action, so, OK, an unconscious character could benefit.
3. Using a second wind requires that one still has a healing surge available. This point is debatable, given the wording on p. 295 about "Healing the Dying", but I would argue that a conscious character with no healing surges couldn't use a second wind, and neither can an unconscious one.
4. Even if you allow the use of a second wind by a dying character who is out of healing surges, they can only use one second wind per encounter. If a dying character has already used a second wind this encounter, the "Use Second Wind" Heal option won't work.

I believe the designers intentionally made the DC for "Use Second Wind" lower than that for "Stabilize the Dying" to make it the preferred choice. However, you can't use it in all circumstances (if the dying character has no healing surges left (depending on your interpretation), and definitely if the dying character has already used a second wind), so sometimes stabilizing is your only option.

 

[jrz069]

The above is incorrect. It states if it requires you to use a Healing Surge and you have none you are restored to 1. The DC 10 Heal check can only work if they haven't used their Second Wind in that encounter yet.

You're right, page 295 is talking about Healing Surges and not Second Winds.

So you're saying they can use the DC 10 Heal check on a dying ally, but only if the dying ally still has a Second Wind?