Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Psion]

Gah! Dang server. Try this one more time...

Not me. Nope. I'd prefer not to be thrown into the big pot of people who claim something is broken based on single examples.

It may be a single example. But when every caster takes it, it obtains a certain pervasiveness.

Non-exhausting? I think I failed to notice that arcanists get unlimited 1st level slots these days?

Oy. Hyperbole.

They obviously don't (but I would hasten to point out you can use higher level slots for lower level spells). But psions don't get an unlimited number of PP's, either. The point here is that arcane casters have, at their service, a high reliability attack power for a very minimal percentage of their total magic resources; the much lauded energy attack powers, though nearing the flexibilty of magic missile, requires a much larger proportional expendiature of their total daily power/spell allotment.

But you do know that I'm speaking of another kind of flexibility (speaking of the Magic Missile flexibility you mentioned), or not?

Oh, I do. I think that would be made clear by my first response. It's just I dismiss your analysis of the relative "value" of those various qualities as faulty. In my high level game, I've seen the blast happy sorcerer PC run through all of his spell slots. I could see an equivalent level psion depleting his powers much more quickly.

I hope you do not want to argue that single spells are more flexible than single powers. There might be exceptions, but the general case is quite clearly in favor of the powers.

The case we were discussing was damaging attack powers. And my point was that the flexibility of energy powers is not quitte total compensation given the cost to scale them, especially when you consider that arcane casters get comparable compensation in some of their cheaper spells that do scale.

 

[Thanee]

Gah! Dang server.

Now that's one thing we can certainly agree on this evening...

The point here is that arcane casters have, at their service, a high reliability attack power for a very minimal percentage of their total magic resources; the much lauded energy attack powers, though nearing the flexibilty of magic missile, requires a much larger proportional expendiature of their total daily power/spell allotment.

Then maybe you should take a look at how many unaugmented Energy Missiles a Psion can launch, and how much damage these can do under good circumstances (let's say, three targets, not too unreasonable). That's 9d6+9 total for every 3 PP - with a save for half, of course. A 10th level psion can do this roughly 30 times per day, with a single power he gets for free at 5th level (bonus feat, the sorcerer does not have those).

So there's your single example, which can easily keep up with Magic Missile.

In my high level game, I've seen the blast happy sorcerer PC run through all of his spell slots. I could see an equivalent level psion depleting his powers much more quickly.

Well, of course they can. But if they do, the impact of what they do is also higher. And as I said somewhere up there, this is an advantage to be able to do this, not a disadvantage, since they are not forced to do it, they just can.

Granted, if a psion gets down to a compareable level of what the sorcerer can do, augmenting only to that point (which is not the maximum possible in most cases), the sorcerer will still have a few more spells per day, but that hardly makes up for all that stuff the psion gets in comparison (the abovementioned ability to burn through their reserve quicker, more flexibility, much more "spells" known, faster power/spell level progression, bonus feats, no verbal/somatic/material components, better caster attribute, Quicken Power, and so on).

A psion cannot be able to have the same number of effective manifestations per day as a sorcerer or even a wizard. They must be behind here, because they get all sorts of other benefits, which would otherwise come for free!

The case we were discussing was damaging attack powers. And my point was that the flexibility of energy powers is not quitte total compensation given the cost to scale them, especially when you consider that arcane casters get comparable compensation in some of their cheaper spells that do scale.

But that doesn't take some stuff into consideration. Namely, the flexibility of the PP application over the day (since I am still not entirely sure, this is the kind of flexibility I am talking about mostly), the non-existance of caps in augmentable psionics. Still, these advantages are there... always.

I didn't even touch the flexibility of the Energy powers (choice of energy, choice of save type) above, that's something, I believe, is too much. As much as I like the idea of having some decent universal rules for the various elements. The energy type should be chosen by the time the power is learned, not when it is manifested. That alone would make these powers a lot more reasonable.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mouseferatu]

Psion, I'm not arguing that sorcerers don't have some advantages. But it's been my experience that, once you reach mid-levels and higher, a psion can dish out more damage than a sorcerer or wizard of the same level. And he can do so with only a handful of powers, as opposed to the sorcerer who has to learn new spells to gain the higher damage potential. It takes the sorcerer three or four spells to equal both the damage potential and flexibility of a psion with just one of the "energy" powers.

Yes, the spells scale automatically and the powers don't. I'm taking that into account in my comparison. It's true that when the psion is spent, the sorcerer will still have a number of low-level spells left. But A) that only matters if the party faces an ungodly number of battles without the chance to rest, and B) doesn't compensate for the fact that the psion will have dealt far more damage to that point than the caster will.

Just for instance, energy ball is superior to fireball in every imaginable respect. It scales up to 20; fireball doesn't, and requires the caster to learn a new spell (delayed blast fireball) to reach the same potential. Energy ball is customizable to all energy types; fireball is just fire, with all the downsides that entails. Energy ball grants the psion the option to target Fort or Ref saves, based on the creature's weaknesses; fireball doesn't. And even using the most direct comparison--fireball vs. energy ball focused on fire--the psionic power wins out, because it does +1 point per die of damage.

And, due to the way the save DC scales, it actually tops out at +1 DC harder to save against than does the fireball.

Every one of the energy powers has the same advantages when compared to any of the standard energy-based offensive spells the caster can access. There's just no comparison, and I don't believe the presence of magic missile makes up for it.

 

[Scion]

once again, even assuming that everything above is true (which is open for debate) can you prove that it is a bad thing?

Damage dealing spells tend to suck a lot (not just a little) at higher levels. As such, it could be that what the psionics do is more like how things will work for other casters in the future, or psions will be left as the kings of versitility who still burn out the fastest if they try to keep up in sheer damage output.

So, like I said, even assuming that what was said above is true, is it the problem of the psion, or is it a problem with the damage dealing spells? My bet is that the damage dealing spells are the real problem here. (this is also backed up with play experience, but I doubt that matters to most)

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

So, am I missing something? Is there a balancing factor I'm just not considering? Or is it simply the case that the kineticist can, indeed, dish out more than the sorcerer? (And if so, am I the only one bothered by that? )

One thing that I don't think many have noticed yet.

Look at the level distribution of the good psion/kineticist direct damage spells.

Now look at Lesser Sphere of Invulnerability.

Note how most of them, especially the kewl ones, like Energy Missile and Energy Stun, are shut down completely. Most of the rest are gotten by the regular version. You also can't heighten the power, to get around that.

Granted, it's not a big thing (oh, look, a spell that's rarely cast), but it does have an effect. It protected two people in our epic campaign from a concussive blast the other day, and if the DM and I had realized, it would have completely changed an encounter I'd had earlier in the game.

However, said encounter ended after I tossed an Overchanneled Empowered Maximized Cold Energy Missile at all four Glooms at once, doing 250-odd damage each with a Fort DC 50-odd for half. They ran after that. (Note: Since my Sainted Unbodied was in between all four, technically, they wouldn't have been affected by the Energy Missile...since I have a Lesser Sphere of Invulnerability naturally)

So, I can't help but think that psions are probably a bit too good at doing hideous quantities of damage. It won't stop me from using them (the DM certainly will), and I'm not especially bothered by it, but I can see the point.

Brad

 

[Shadowdweller]

Psions are certainly good 'mobile artillery platforms'. The thing is, though, IMO the real strength of the arcane caster isn't really in directly dealing damage. It lies in the scope and breadth of the spell list.

There are FAR fewer higher-level psionic powers and many of these are very similar and combat-oriented (for instance there are about a bazillion different damaging psionic powers that follow the same damage formula adding one die per extra power point) even if they can individually be augmented in a variety of ways. In contrast, let's take something like the Wall of Stone spell...which since it can be shaped at will when cast can be used to bridge a chasm, trap an enemy inside a globe of stone, serve as a staircase upward, divide the battlefield, and many other things with a SINGLE spell. You simply do not have things as far reaching as a psion...especially at higher levels. And coupled with this, for the given effect Arcane spells are often amazingly efficient. My experience, despite what one might think with the augmentation rules, is that even a sorcerer is more ultimately versatile than a psion.

Obviously, if you think that arcane casters should be the absolute masters of inflicting damage via spell or spell-like ability than you're going to be disappointed. There's not all that much you can do about this, but I personally prefer my caster with more far-reaching abilities.

 

[Thanee]

once again, even assuming that everything above is true (which is open for debate) can you prove that it is a bad thing?

For 4th edition, maybe not, if they will make things more equal, but for 3.5 edition it is for sure, since there is a huge discrepancy between the base classes this way, and such a discrepancy is a bad thing in a game, which is based on balance. There's really not much to prove there, if this discrepancy is taken for granted as you say (which is open for debate, of course).

The designers of the 3.5 core rules have gone to lengths to create a better balance between the classes as compared to the 3.0 rules, and they have at least succeeded to a degree, maybe not fully, but it certainly is much better now. There really is no need to create such a huge imbalance again.

If you don't like the 3.5 rules that's one thing, but the XPH is meant for exactly these rules, not for 3.0, not for your houseruled 3.0/3.5 conglomerate and not for 4.0, so it has to be judged against the official 3.5 rules and only these.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Psion, I'm not arguing that sorcerers don't have some advantages. But it's been my experience that, once you reach mid-levels and higher, a psion can dish out more damage than a sorcerer or wizard of the same level.

For one fight, maybe. It's been my experience that in a tough dungeon crawl, a sorcerer going at full bore will tap out fairly quickly, but a psion will go through far more points.

And he can do so with only a handful of powers, as opposed to the sorcerer who has to learn new spells to gain the higher damage potential. It takes the sorcerer three or four spells to equal both the damage potential and flexibility of a psion with just one of the "energy" powers.

But this totally neglects that for those more powerful powers, the psion is paying a much higher percentage of their total power. If a psion uses a 3rd level power for 10d6, they are paying a 5th level premium for it. Comparing it to a 3rd level power is no longer a fair comparison anymore.

Yes, the spells scale automatically and the powers don't. I'm taking that into account in my comparison. It's true that when the psion is spent, the sorcerer will still have a number of low-level spells left. But A) that only matters if the party faces an ungodly number of battles without the chance to rest,

Not, it does not. Unless you consider "2 or 3" = "Ungodly".

and B) doesn't compensate for the fact that the psion will have dealt far more damage to that point than the caster will.

Far? Oy. I really beg to differ.

How long do your high level combats last?

IME, most of mine average out at about 3 rounds.

If you are counting, that is the MINIMUM amount of slots a sorcerer will have for a given level. The sorcerer in my high level game, when the going got tough, could drop 3 horrid wilting and wither away any living competition and still have room for DBF's. That's more than one fight.

Just for instance, energy ball is superior to fireball in every imaginable respect. It scales up to 20; fireball doesn't,

Only if you discount that fact that you are paying 9th+ level premiums to use that ability.

and requires the caster to learn a new spell (delayed blast fireball) to reach the same potential.

Of course since they can forget the topped out spells (in the case of a sorcerer) or learn any amount of spells (in the case of a wizard), this is a non-detriment.

Energy ball is customizable to all energy types; fireball is just fire, with all the downsides that entails. Energy ball grants the psion the option to target Fort or Ref saves, based on the creature's weaknesses; fireball doesn't.

And considering the premium the psion has to pay to scale that power -- a perk arcane casters get for free -- that's fair.


IME from actual play, a psion does not dominate in ways that some of you are suggesting that they would. Theoretical estimations of their dominance seem to rely on any or all of assigning too much significance to the flexibility of the energy powers, too little significance to the fact that psions pay the equivalent cost of higher level powers to scale them without gaining the full benefits of a higher level power (such as energy missile not gaining multiple targets when you scale it or any of the energy powers ever attaining the selective targeting of horrid wilting), or a rather generous challenge frequency.

 

[Scion]

for 3.5 edition it is for sure, since there is a huge discrepancy between the base classes this way, and such a discrepancy is a bad thing in a game, which is based on balance.

This is simply not true.

Divine casters can heal, arcane casters cannot.

Does this discrepancy destroy the game?


once again though, you did not address the point. Even if psions are better at direct damage is this a bad thing? Since direct damage at higher levels for spells is useless a good majority of the time anyway (or at least incredily lack luster.. lets see, if the bad guy fails his save then he will lose, at most, a third of his hp.. and that is if the roll is really good and he has no resistance/immunity, some sort of evasion, or any number of other things).

The improved (only slightly, lack of scaling is a pretty big hit here as well) ability to deal damage isnt exactly a problem in my opinion, it is in yours. I would like you to actually prove why it is a problem.

'Discrepancies' between how various classes do things abound, so obviously that isnt a problem.

I have seen it in play, and there has yet to be any 'huge imbalance'.

 

[Thanee]

Of course since they can forget the topped out spells (in the case of a sorcerer) or learn any amount of spells (in the case of a wizard), this is a non-detriment.

Well, a sorcerer can do this once every other level, hardly enough to upgrade every spell they know (which the psion does automatically and for free, and they even can pay a few XP to swap out every single power they know!); it still takes a huge amount of planning to get a nice spell selection for a sorcerer even with the new swapping ability. Wizards can learn additional spells, but pay a high cost for it. The last wizard I made has a large selection of spells (like 20 per level), but that was like half the resources spent on the spellbook, that's a lot of gold, which could have been used on magic items instead!

So, non-detriment is hardly correct, altho it's true, of course, that they do have some ways to get around this disadvantage to a degree.

And considering the premium the psion has to pay to scale that power -- a perk arcane casters get for free -- that's fair.

But, if that is their compensation for the augmentation cost, then why do they get the much better flexibility with the PP system, have no caps, can wear armor without hindering their primary ability, do not have to bother about grapples, silence and such, since all their powers have no somatic and material components, have better class skills, more effective skill points per level, gain bonus feats, gain higher power levels at one level before they should, know a lot more powers of the relevant levels and do not have to bother which one to swap out since all upgrade for free, which also almost removes the need for metafeats to keep their low-level powers useful, can quicken spells, or instead of the last few items gain the ability to spontaneously manifest powers (which is the single most powerful ability for a spellcaster/manifester (the ability to cast spells/manifest powers in the first place not included, which is, of course, the most powerful ability all in all) in all D&D) as opposed to prepare them ahead of time, and so on?

What's the compensation for all that stuff then?

Bye
Thanee