Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Plane Sailing]

The only problem that I have with the psion is the extreme flexibility of being able to choose energy type at casting time. I like the way that there is a consistent difference between the different energy types and look forward to the day when that carries across to arcane magic.

The genie is out of the bottle in my current campaign, as the psion is already using the energy powers (hence my disquiet at them in practice). In the future I'd say that the energy type must be chosen at the point that the power is learnt, and that it is for simple consistency that all energy types are joined together in one entry.

Cheers

 

[Scion]

With the nigh on unuseability of most damaging spells at higher levels then the psionic version is desperately needed for it to be a very viable concept later on in the game.

Also, you cannot, I repeat, cannot compare an augmented 1st level power to a 1st level spell. They are completely seperate creatures. It is like comparing a magic missile to a quickened, empowered, maximised magic missile.. oh no! magic missile is broken when compared to magic missile!


In any event. Damage dealing spells are mostly a joke, especially at higher levels when everyone and their brother has resistance/immunity, SR, and who knows what else. At lower levels the spellslinger can get by for the most part, but even around level 8 or so the magic is gone (so to speak).

So far we have had no trouble in my game with psionics. The augmentation works nicely and there is a bit of give and take here and there between the two systems.


Psions better artillery? sometimes, usually even, but is that a bad thing considering how bad spell artillary is after a certain point? not that I can see.

I'd rather there be more options rather than having to limit oneself to buffing and/or save or dies as the only useful tactics.

 

[Patlin]

Just the facts, for your consumption:

Sorceror Spells Per Day, level 10
6 6 6 6 5 3
Power Point Equivalent, ignoring cantrips: 116

Sorceror Spells Known, level 10
9 5 4 3 2 1
Total, Ignoring Cantrips: 15

Psion Power Points, Level 10
88

Psion Powers Known, Level 10
21

Expected Damage Per Spell/pp
1/1 5d4+5 (magic missile) / d6 (Crystal Shard)
2/3 8d6 (Scorching Ray / 3d6 (Crystal Shard)
3/5 10d6 (Fireball) / 5d6+5 (Energy Burst)
4/7 10d6 (Cone of Cold) / 7d6+7 (Energy Ball)
5/9 10d6 (Cone of Cold or Fireball or * 1.5 for empowered fireball) / 9d6+9 (Energy Ball or 7d6+7*1.5 empowered energy ball)

 

[Spatula]

It's true that if a psion blows his entire PP reserve like that, he's helpless later, whereas the wiz/sor will still have lower-level spells. But honestly, how often have you folks seen a psion or wizard run completely out of spells. It does happen, but not often.

The psions run out of PP all the time in my game.

Psions are better artillery than either the wizard or the sorcerer, which is a shame. It's also a big disconnect from the flavor of psionics in previous editions. If I could do it all over again, I would ban all the energy powers, and move some of the better TK powers into the kineticist list to fill the holes that would cause.

One problem is that some of the powers are in need of errata (and didn't get it), such as energy missile and energy stun. The BIG problem is the flexibility. Protecting yourself from an energy-wielding psion is far too difficult, as you need to be resistant to four different energy types. If you've got evasion, the psion can switch to cold damage. I suppose your best bet is to be a rogue or monk with cold resistance.

If you're going to allow the energy powers, I would definitely recommend forcing psions to choose a single type of energy, with a feat to unlock additional types (one feat per type).

 

[Sorren]

I'm up to 5th level with my elan psion (kineticist). Here is what I've noticed:

Kineticists can deal more damage than a Sorcerer. However, the problem isn't the Kineticist, it's the Sorcerer. If you took the sorcerer, and gave him the advantages of specializing in Evocation, they'd be about the same IMHO.

Comparing Wizards and Psions is comparing apples and oranges but I feel they are about equal based on nothing more than how fun they are to play. If my psion died today, I'd replace him with a wizard. I wouldn't even consider a sorcerer.

Another thing I noticed is that, if I know I can rest after a battle, I'm going to dominate the battlefield. There has to be a reason I can't stop and rest if you want me to reserve power points. Energy Missle is awesome. It functions much like a low level fireball and has additional flexibility that is great. Mindthrust is very much all or nothing and in an undead heavy campaign, gets very little use. But when it hits, it hits hard.

I miss cantrips, but this is balanced by the fact that 1st level powers can be used very often at higher levels. My psion has a spear and a light crossbow. At 5th level, I have never used my spear in combat. I used my crossbow ONCE, and it was to deliver a coup-de-grace to a helpless hellhound.

I'd much rather burn a power point and smack them with a 1d10 mindthrust.

One problem I've noticed is that, despite many powers that can augment, there are some that don't and they loose their effectivness at higher levels. I plan to get Psychic Reformation ASAP. Even some that can be augmented really aren't worth it at high levels.

It's nice that sorcerers can swap out their spells for free, without the use of another spell. In my opinion, they need all the help they can get.

 

[Gaiden]

A player has a kineticist in a RttToEE game I play in and we have noted just how much better the 3.5 version is than the 3.0. However, we still abhor psionicists by comparison to mages. If not for the story element, we would of just trashed psions all together in favor of wizards. The psion runs out of power points the first battle of every day and is worthless for the rest of the time. The reason for this is that he has to spend the pp's equivalent to the highest power for even lower level ones to augment them to the point that low level spells (3rd and 4th) would normally scale. I am surprised people think psions are all that. I'd take an artillery sorcerer with energy substitution over a psion any day.

 

[Someone]

A fully scaled 1st level spell is not the equivalent of an unaugmented 1st level power.

Repeat.

A fully scaled 1st level spell is not the equivalent of an unaugmented 1st level power.

Actually, Thanee, yes, you can compare them since both, (wizard/sorcerer) and psion are spending the same resources in them. In terms of cost/benefit, spells win hands down. In terms of absolute power, powers have a big advantage.

To answer the OP, I can offer my bit of playtesting. I used a 8th kineticist (a CR 9 creature) against my party of 4 12th level characters.

He manifested a couple of preparatory powers (Vigor and Inertial armor) and before the batte started, he used Ectoplasmic Wall a couple times. In the battle, he manifested Dispel psionics twice, Energy Ball (empowered) and Energy Ray. He ended very low on power points

Compared with an hipotetical sorcerer of that level, he was much more versatile -a lot more powers know, but I remember that I had to take Expanded Knowledge to take one power needed to the bad guy´s strategy. Psion wins, since he has bonus feats; even "needing" to take expanded knowledge.

He knew beforehand the party´s strenghts, so he decided to use Electricity on the energy powers, instead of fire or cold (they have a lot of fire resistance, and the paladin/templar and fighter/cleric have stupidly high Fort saves and Mettle) Psion wins big time.

He had Overchannel, so he could manifest an Empowered energy ball, doing big damage. Really, Overchannel is a very powerful feat. Psion wins, but spending a lot of resources (the equivalent of a 5 1/2 spell) A sorcerer would have done "only" 8d6 of damage, but spending a 3rd level slot.

But he had not Psionic Meditation. Later, he shot an energy ray at the paladin, but he spent earlier the focus. A sorcerer would have been able to a) shoot a regular Scorching Ray, doing the same damage but spending only a 2nd level slot, or shoot an Empowered Scorching ray. Even if he had psionic meditation, his Concentration skill was +13 or so; failing DC 20 is a real possibility. Sorcerer wins.

He didn´t fight alone. A sorcerer would have likely used a defensive spell, like Displacement, on his buddies. The psion only had Vigor, and even if he had taken Greater concealing amorpha, those are only personal powers. Sorcerer wins.

He ended VERY low on PPs, in only one encounter. A sorcerer would have spent only a fraction of his resources. Sorcerer wins.

That´s what I can remember now. Apparently, they win the same number of times, but the Psion "wins" are arguably better.

 

[Psion]

*sigh*

When will people realize, that you simply cannot compare magic and psionics this way.

You say that, but it is just these sorts of comparisons that you all are basing claims of over-powered-ness on.

So I play on the same field that you are playing on and all of a sudden it's not a valid comparison? Interesting

Magic Missile is a good spell, sure. One of the most potent 1st level spell even. At 9th level it is at the height of its potency. But how do things look at, say, 15th level?

It still gets regularly used IME. In 3e, spell penetration is based on caster level, not spell level, and it still remains competitive in an environment where you see an increasing number of creatures with elemental resistances.

One thing is very important when making such comparisons:

A fully scaled 1st level spell is not the equivalent of an unaugmented 1st level power.

Just who do you think wasn't getting this? It was my entire point!

Spells... SCALE. For free.

Powers... DON'T.

Scaling has slot limits and caps, but scales for free, making lower level slots useful to a degree.
Augmentation has a higher cost, since it does not scale for free, but a lot more flexibility in application and no caps.

At this point, things are about equal.

I disagree. And so long as magic missile continues to exist, I will continue to disagree, because it will still give arcane caster "flexible and non-exhausting attack utility" that psions otherwise lack.

Add in flexibility on the psion side of the equation, THEN things begin to look equal.

 

[Thanee]

You say that, but it is just these sorts of comparisons that you all are basing claims of over-powered-ness on.

Not me. Nope. I'd prefer not to be thrown into the big pot of people who claim something is broken based on single examples. I can't recall ever having made such a claim, especially when it comes to the XPH, really.

So I play on the same field that you are playing on and all of a sudden it's not a valid comparison? Interesting

See above.

I think I explained my viewpoint quite good in the longer post even further above. You might not agree with it, which is fine, really, but this here is simply not true.

It still gets regularly used IME. In 3e, spell penetration is based on caster level, not spell level, and it still remains competitive in an environment where you see an increasing number of creatures with elemental resistances.

Used, yes, I didn't disagree there, but it doesn't make much of a difference. It's mostly used because it is there and you can't use it for anything else.

Just who do you think wasn't getting this? It was my entire point!

Spells... SCALE. For free.
Powers... DON'T.

True enough. But just a fraction of the whole.

I disagree. And so long as magic missile continues to exist, I will continue to disagree, because it will still give arcane caster "flexible and non-exhausting attack utility" that psions otherwise lack.

Non-exhausting? I think I failed to notice that arcanists get unlimited 1st level slots these days?

But you do know that I'm speaking of another kind of flexibility (speaking of the Magic Missile flexibility you mentioned), or not?

I hope you do not want to argue that single spells are more flexible than single powers. There might be exceptions, but the general case is quite clearly in favor of the powers.

Add in flexibility on the psion side of the equation, THEN things begin to look equal.

Flexibility was included in my above (longer) post.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Actually, Thanee, yes, you can compare them since both, (wizard/sorcerer) and psion are spending the same resources in them. In terms of cost/benefit, spells win hands down. In terms of absolute power, powers have a big advantage.

Well, sure, you can compare them, they just are not equivalent.

Augmentation is the psionics version of scaling. It has a cost to compensate for the fact, that psionics are more flexible and have no caps.

Bye
Thanee