Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Spatula]

"Free heightening" is not an impressive feature,

Increasing the save DC of spells/powers is not an impressive feature? Then why did WOTC nerf Spell Focus in 3.5?

as the psion may get the benefits of it in one way, they lack the "free damage heightening" that arcane casters have.

Yes, but the psion gets something from paying for increased damage (higher DCs) that arcane casters do not with their free damage scaling. This is in addition to the energy flexibility when using the energy powers and the additional effects of those energy types (extra damage, higher DC, Fort instead of Refl save, damaging objects/beating most resistances).

I never said it was. It is a "high level direct damage spell" that circumvents energy resistance,

As is ultrablast, although ultrablast isn't anywhere near as useful as horrid wilting. It is, however, an area-affect power that doesn't affect allies.

 

[Nail]

Just like I feel that those who think energy substitution should take a spell level are overestimating its impact.

Wow.......

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, I guess.

 

[Thanee]

You keep asserting that paying out the nose for their powers is not total compensation, but have done nothing to demonstrate that.

Okay, if you want some numbers, here we go...



Psion level 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th (these are the levels at which the "important" spell levels cap, so in favor to the arcanists), assuming reasonable stats (starting at 16, all level improvements applied to them and +2/+4/+6/+6 item included, as well as a +3 inherent at 20th level, also from 15th level onwards, I'll assume each power costs 1 PP less thanks to the torque of psionic world domination ).

5th PP total 25+10=35
10th PP total 88+30=118
15th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)
20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)

A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 fully augmented powers per day.
A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 fully augmented powers per day.
A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 fully augmented powers per day.
A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 fully augmented powers per day.

A 5th level psion knows 11 powers, let's say 5 of those are equivalent to 3rd level powers.
A 10th level psion knows 21 powers, let's say 10 of those are equivalent to 5th level powers.
A 15th level psion knows 28 powers, let's say 14 of those are equivalent to 8th level powers.
A 20th level psion knows 36 powers, let's say 18 of those are equivalent to 9th level powers.

The reduced number (1/2) for the highest level powers comes from the fact, that not all are augmentable and a few are simply not worth it anymore. I guess this is a fair assumption.



Now for the sorcerer spells per day and wizard spells known (0th not included).

Note, that the sorcerer is leagues behind in spells known and the wizard somewhat lacks behind in spellcastings per day, still I pick the optimum from both classes in this comparison in each case!

A 5th level sorcerer can cast 7/5/0! spells per day.
A 10th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/6/4 spells per day.
A 15th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/7/7/7/4/0! spells per day.
A 20th level sorcerer can cast 9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7 spells per day.

A 5th level wizard knows 14 spells, 2 of those are 3rd level.
A 10th level wizard knows 24 spells, 4 of those are 5th level.
A 15th level wizard knows 34 spells, 2 of those are 8th level.
A 20th level wizard knows 44 spells, 8 of those are 9th level.

(plus some more (usually lower level) spells added with money, of course.)



So, what do we see here, considering that the psion goes for maximum possible effect and wastes PP at the highest possible rate, the sorcerer needs to resort to the 3-4 highest spell levels to keep up with that number of manifestations. Sure, the sorcerer still has some weak spells left, but then again, each of the psion's manifestations was more powerful (easily up to twice as powerful, considering the lower spell levels involved, I guess there is no argument, that an 8th level power is much, much more powerful than a 5th level spell).

Also, the psion knows not that much fewer powers than the wizard knows spells in total, however, the wizard can add more for money, which will most certainly double or triple the number of spells known, but the psion's powers also are in most cases at least worth as much as three spells known, since they include all the lower and higher versions the wizard has to learn seperately, and which are included in this knowledge. So the psion is not really that much behind here for sure. If we look at the highest levels only, then the psion is way ahead even with two to three times as many different high level powers to choose from.



Now in total this means, the psion has the knowledge base of the wizard and almost the casting endurance of the sorcerer, while the psion with no doubt has an equal or higher total power in every single manifestation as compared to the spellcasting of both sorcerer and wizard.

And this does not take into account the lack of verbal, somatic and material component, the ability to manifest in full plate armor; that the psion is in all ways at the level of the wizard when it comes to gimmicks (skills, feats) and way ahead of the sorcerer here, or to look at it from the other perspective has spontaneous manifestation, which the wizard lacks and which is a huge advantage. It also does not take into account the obviously much better flexibility psions enjoy when it comes to distributing their PP over the day, or when it comes to manifesting a single power (best example the Energy line, but also stuff like Dominate can be custom tailored for the situation each time it is manifested, and these certainly are not the only examples).


Best of both worlds, I say, with basically none of the disadvantages of either sorcerer or wizard!

Fair? Hardly!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Increasing the save DC of spells/powers is not an impressive feature?

When you have to pay effective cast spell levels for it? No.

Then why did WOTC nerf Spell Focus in 3.5?

That's another kettle of fish, but if you want my take: because they were over-reacting. It was too easy to mega-pump DCs in 3.0.

But since they nerfed stat enhancers and archmage, nerfing Spell Focus to its presently too weak state was overkill.

And even Andy Collins went on the record as saying he does not feel that +2 DC for one feat was too much.

Yes, but the psion gets something from paying for increased damage (higher DCs) that arcane casters do not with their free damage scaling.

Since the arcane casters got that benefit without paying for it from their daily allotment of spell slots (like a psion does from their PP), that is not much of a complaint.

As is ultrablast, although ultrablast isn't anywhere near as useful as horrid wilting. It is, however, an area-affect power that doesn't affect allies.

[/quote]

I'm not sure why you bring this up again. It seems like you think I am saying something about horrid wilting that I am not. I merely brought it up as an example of why sorcerers have nothing to be ashamed about in high level damage capacity, as well as an example of why there is more to a REAL high level power/spell than more damage and save DC. Ultrablast is an authentic higher level power, so that it compares is sort of unsurprising. (Horrid wilting has a modest advantage in that it is not centered on the caster.)

 

[Thanee]

You really are being obtuse, aren't you?

Too lazy to pick up my dictionary... what is "obtuse"?

Just like wizards. It seems like many of your examples rely on comparisons with the arguably underpowered sorcerer.

Nah, but I admit, it probably got a bit mixed up what I meant where...

To rehash... psion versus sorcerer gains pretty much all that stuff listed, no need to repeat. Psion versus wizard gains SPONTANEOUS manifestation and some other gimmicks (armor, grapple, silence advantages).

But it's dirty pool to pick the sorcerer as the basis for calling the psion too strong when using the same comparisons, another core class, the wizard, shines in the same area.

I still think spontaneous casting is not something to simply ignore...

And psions are slightly ahead of the sorcerer too.

Can you actually say that with a straight face!?

If so, you should probably go playing poker in Las Vegas for a living!

Actually I didn't. I thought you were talking about spell/power levels, because I knew that a psion doesn't get powers any quicker than a wizard.

Sorry for the confusion then...

Also forget not that one of the compensations that wizards have is the ability to learn a large variety of spells and to leave slots open to utilize any of them.

At a considerable (opportunity) cost.

1) If the cap is a problem, the sorcerer can pick a new spell (the wizard merely need not memorize it). Note that I have never seen, even at epic levels, a sorcerer dispense with magic missile.

Yeah, but those low level spells, while certainly nice, surely are no match for the higher level ones.

And I am quite certain that they do. It seems we are at an impasse.

Then look at my post above please, where I tried to underline my "assumption" with actual numbers.

You want to limit psions to one energy type in your game, then by all means do.

No, I want (and have) limited psions to non-existance in my game.

As long as they do not put out a decently playtested and balanced book, this will remain that way (and is in full agreement with the other players).

Do you not understand why? It needs to be, because if you made psions pay for their damage enhancement AND full cost for metapsionics, it would make metapsionics worthless.

Heh. Actually, I totally agree with you, that it is the compensation for this, but everyone else so far told me it was not.

Further, those level costs aren't just waved off. They show up in terms of psionic focus, which sharply limits the number of such feats the psion can use in a single combat and -- for that matter -- on a single power.

Yes, focus is a limit for sure. Of course, this is compensated by having feats like Psionic Penetration be twice as good as Spell Penetration and Psionic Endowment, let's say three to four times as good as Spell Focus, also (as mentioned above) most good metamagic feats are already subsumed in the psionic system and augmentation system without the need to learn a feat in the first place. And they included ways to circumvent the real cost of focus (using a meaningful action to regain it) with Psionic Meditation and Hustle. So it's really not that bad for the poor psion (the class, not you ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Since you cannot prove that it is not?

This onus falls upon your shoulders for now. You have repeatidly asserted that they are unbalanced yet the only 'proof' you present is highly skewed and incredibly one dimensional. Effectively it is designed to try to support what you want but never really does it unless you have one eye closed and are squinting.

Still waiting for you to present a good arguement why it is overpowered.

Well, especially for you, here's a quote from the DMG:

Immaterial. They break this 'rule' right in the core. Plus, it does not necissarily relate to things outside of the books it speaks about directly (which, again, is not even true within the core itself).

P.S. "the above" is mostly about this discrepancy you handwave away as wrong (without any kind of proof or argument). Your "arcanists cannot cast healing spells" statenent is not a discrepancy, since they can do other things instead.

It is a discrepancy, one caster type can do something that the other cannot. You are saying that psions shouldnt be able to trade one sort of power for another, but you are happy with the supposition that mages do it in another way.

You cannot have it both ways.

Please put up a valid arguement. Obviously you feel strongly about this, otherwise you wouldnt post about it, so you must have a few good reasons somewhere.

Also, you use the torc of psionic might for the psion but you fail to use anything for the other casters. How about rings of wizardry? (they suck for a wizard, but can be very good for a sorc) or pearls of power? (the psionic equivalent is roughly a large pile of poo, but the pearls are incredibly nice). All what you did there was further skew things without any useful way of compensating the other side, which makes the comparison that much more faulty.

 

[Psion]

Okay, if you want some numbers, here we go...

I don't suspect that this will prove much, as you have already demonstrated a willingness to ingore or downplay advantages I have sited, I don't suspect you will factor them in in your number crunching, either.

(snip somewhat fair guestimates as to PP and spell slots)

The reduced number (1/2) for the highest level powers comes from the fact, that not all are augmentable and a few are simply not worth it anymore. I guess this is a fair assumption.

The problem here is that you assume that a low level power augmented to a higher level power is the equivalent of an unaugmented high level power of the same cost. It might match damage or DC (but oft times only one or the other), but often lacks other advantages that higher level powers have.

Further, you are still not factoring in the fact that arcane casters are getting more bang for their buck out of their lower level power slots. A 3rd level fireball from a sorcerer can do 10d6 points of damage, while a psion has to pay 10 power points (the equivalent of a 5th level spell) to do the same amount. You express things in terms of fully augmented powers and ignore the fact that those fully augmented powers may be no better than one of a sorcerer's lower level powers.

Consider each psion PP as a dice of damage and apply the standard damage caps from the DMG as a weight to each level (or the arcane caster's level, whichever is worse), and you have a more realistic picture of their comparative power in terms of raw damaging potential. (Again, like your examples, it does not paint a complete picture, but it does shine a light on an area you are neglecting). For reference, a 10th level sorcerer will have 275 dice of damage power, compared to the psion's 113 (assuming a 20 in prime stat).

Note, that the sorcerer is leagues behind in spells known and the wizard somewhat lacks behind in spellcastings per day, still I pick the optimum from both classes in this comparison in each case!

Which neglects the advantages each have as well.

(plus some more (usually lower level) spells added with money, of course.)

Since spell scribing costs increase linearly and wealth increases exponentially, that's a faulty assumption for any competantly played wizard.

So, what do we see here, considering that the psion goes for maximum possible effect and wastes PP at the highest possible rate, the sorcerer needs to resort to the 3-4 highest spell levels to keep up with that number of manifestations. Sure, the sorcerer still has some weak spells left, but then again, each of the psion's manifestations was more powerful (easily up to twice as powerful, considering the lower spell levels involved, I guess there is no argument, that an 8th level power is much, much more powerful than a 5th level spell).

Again, that does not mean that a 5th level (or 3rd level or 1st level) power augmented to 8th level is as powerful as an 8th level power. But the psion would have to be spending points in that fashion just to keep up with the sorcerer. A 10th level psion would have to spend the power point equivalent of a 5th level spell to do as much damage as a 3rd level fireball.

Also, the psion knows not that much fewer powers than the wizard knows spells in total, however, the wizard can add more for money, which will most certainly double or triple the number of spells known, but the psion's powers also are in most cases at least worth as much as three spells known,

Another estimate I do not agree with. Especially not "in most cases." While in some cases a wizard may want to pick up a few spells in a similar chain, in most cases, they skip around a little. A sorcerer would be especially foolhardy to squander slots similar to slots they already have unless they are planning on dumping the earlier ones.

or to look it from the other perspective has spontaneous manifestation, which the wizard lacks.

And neglects such factors as the wizard leaving open slots to access WAY more spells than the psion could ever hope to.

It also does not take into account the obviously much better flexibility psions enjoy when it comes to distributing their PP over the day.

Which is an argument made in the same breath as asserting that psions can outblast a sorcerer -- at the cost of squandering all of their PP for the day. Yes, flexibilty is an advantage. But as overhead is more for a psion, they pay for that advantage.

Best of both worlds, I say, with basically none of the disadvantages of either sorcerer or wizard!

If you stack the deck and ignore advantages of arcane casters compared to psions, yeah.

 

[Psion]

Too lazy to pick up my dictionary... what is "obtuse"?

It means I feel you are deliberately trying to not get my points.

I still think spontaneous casting is not something to simply ignore...

I never said it did. But I don't feel like the advantages of the wizards breadth of spells and potential specialist advantages can be ignored, either (in fact, specialists are the primary reason I feel wizards have it all over sorcerers)

Can you actually say that with a straight face!?

Oh, please, Thanee. I am giving you the benefit of trusting that you actually beleive the psion to be overpowered. I just think you are making mountains out of molehills when it comes to evauting their comparative strengths. I agreed with earlier critics that the psion is underpowered (not the the degree that strutinian suggests, but still). They jazzed it up a bit, but I do not beleive it is to the degree I would call it overpowered. And experiences in actual play with psions bear this out IME.

Sorry for the confusion then...

Heh... http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=12

Yeah, but those low level spells, while certainly nice, surely are no match for the higher level ones.

Oh, undoubtedly. I am not saying lower level spells are the same potency as higher level spells.

What I am saying is that those lower level spells are on par with lower level augmented powers that the psion will be paying the price of higher level powers for.

Then look at my post above please, where I tried to underline my "assumption" with actual numbers.

See my response to said post for why I beleive your numbers have a lot of blind spots and miss points I have been making since I got involved with this time-slaughtering thread.

Heh. Actually, I totally agree with you, that it is the compensation for this, but everyone else so far told me it was not.

Quick, write this down.

Yes, focus is a limit for sure. Of course, this is compensated by having feats like Psionic Penetration be twice as good as Spell Penetration and Psionic Endowment, let's say three to four times as good as Spell Focus,

I'm not sure how to reply to that considering I consider spell focus underpowered.

You do pay for it, though. Just as before. I think it could be significant to leverage some powers. Too useful? Hard to say. I'll leaning towards the side of "not" since animal affinity is a discipline power.

also (as mentioned above) most good metamagic feats are already subsumed in the psionic system and augmentation system without the need to learn a feat in the first place.

But only with partial benefits of each. Some of the benefits that those feats give you -- mainly, lack of being noticed using a power/casting a spell -- are still a problem for psions.

And they included ways to circumvent the real cost of focus (using a meaningful action to regain it) with Psionic Meditation and Hustle. So it's really not that bad for the poor psion (the class, not you ).

While that solves the full action annoyance, it still keeps you from using any other enhancements or feats that would require you to expend your focus.

 

[Scion]

Remember, if a caster picks up spell penetration then all of their spells are caster level +2 to overcome spell resistance.

However, the psion must burn focus in order to get any sort of benefit at all out of his power penetration. Sure, the bonus is higher (+2 higher), but the cost is just monstrous. Too much cost for too little benefit, even with the higher plus.

 

[ForceUser]

Interesting discussion, but it might be that you folks aren't looking at the whole picture. It has been suggested in my gaming group that while, yes, we agree that the XPH psion is a better nuker than the wizard or sorcerer, he is far weaker defensively that either class. I won't argue the point since I haven't read the psionic powers in detail, but isn't it true that the psion has far fewer defensive capabilites than a like-leveled arcanist? That's got to count for something when you're stacking the casters up against each other.