Help Me Understand the GURPS Design Perspective

[pemerton]

On that note have you seen the Sentinels Comics RPG? It's as close to a streamlined Marvel Heroic 2e as there is ever going to be.

Sorry, no, don't know it (other than the references in this thread).

GURPS runs on a linear scale for damage as stats increase, MHRP runs on a logarithmic one.

In a loose sense, I guess that's true. For instance, for Strength (p OM85):

* Enhanced Strength d8 allows you to turn over cars, break through solid barriers, and bend ordinary iron bars.

* Superhuman Strength d10 allows you to lift and throw vehicles, smash through stone and metal, and tear apart most barriers.

* Godlike Strength d12 confers the power to hurl objects into orbit, push over tall buildings, and demolish most structures.​

But there's more to it than that. (As I'm sure you know. But for those out there who don't . . .)

The descriptors (Enhanced, Superhuman and Godlike) each bring a default die size with them. They also set the parameters of fictional positioning and action declaration (in HeroQuest revised this is called the "credibility test"; MHRP doesn't have a label for it, but discusses it on p OM55). And those two things can come apart: for instance, a character might have an ability that allows stepping up a die (so eg turning the d8 Enhanced Strength die into a d10). But that doesn't necessarily mean that the character can, on those occasions, throw and lift vehicles rather than just overturn them. That would depend on the relevant fiction that explains the die step up ability.

This feature of MHRP - namely, that it assumes a prior fiction that serves as a constraint on action declaration and resolution before any dice are pooled and rolled - was a source of numerous complaints when it was first released, from RPGers who don't want to treat the fact that (say) Spider Man can't normally beat The Hulk in an arm wrestle as a fiction-derived constraint on permissible action declaration, but rather want the action resolution mechanics to produce this as an outcome.

(And this ties back to @innerdude's OP. I think GURPS is definitely for that second sort of person, who wants the mechanics to establish what is possible in the fiction, rather than treating already-known fictional states of affairs as constraints on what is possible via the mechanics.)

MHRP's damage is literally just another die-trait; one can make boosts/hinders with exactly the same mechanics as doing damage.

This is something I like very much about MHRP. It's also a big part of what is fun in our Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy Hack game, which is mechanically pretty much the same as MHRP. (Our hack game is influenced by the Hacker's Guide, but makes fewer changes to to system than the suggested hacks in that book - only the speciality list (= skills, for non-MHRPers) is different.)

 

[pemerton]

There are plenty of examples in the comics of Batman being completely unable to stop Superman from doing what Superman wants to do. None of his "greatest analytical mind" and wealth can do anything about it... except when the author wants it to.

I don't quite get this.

In an RPG there typically isn't when the author wants it to - unless we have table consensus, but in Batman-PC fighting Superman-PC I'm assuming that such consensus is lacking!

So that's when we turn to the mechanics. If Batman's player wins the contest, then we know that his anlaytical mind or wealth or whatever (details will of course depend on the minutiae of the resolution system) was enough to beat Superman. If not, then we know -conversely - that they weren't. Perhaps because Batman didn't anticipate that Superman would throw a trillion-times-FTL punch right now!

when you look at official builds for such disparate character types within officially licensed game systems for Marvel or DC, “luck” mechanics are seldom included for the hyper-talented mortals. IOW, even if the game mechanics allow it, they don’t have it.

In the case of MHRP, there is no need for "luck" mechanics because the issue is addressed at a more fundamental system design level.

I take it that this is what @Umbran is getting at in saying "You worry about 'plot armor' because 'plot armor' is a patch to a physics model to make up for its lack of ability to do what the genre asks of it. "

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As opposed to the Batman-player being annoyed because his character is reduced to being a sidekick?

You mean how some people complain about “Linear Fighters and Quadratic Wizards”? See also the spoof of the superheroic equivalent:

A lot of games use some version of ‘plot points’ to smooth over power discrepancies. The greater the power discrepancy, the more powerful the plot points need to be to compensate.

And for some, that’s as bad as the problem you described above. No system solves all problems; all solutions introduce their own issues. Which is why there’s more than one RPG system out there.

One of the biggest gripes about Mutants & Masterminds several players in a group I was in was how the system handled Autofire attacks. They wanted each shot to get its own roll like other systems do. M&M’s mechanic interfered with how they viewed their PCs’ actions.

Those same guys played D&D for 20 years mainly playing martial PCs while another player almost always played some slight variation of the highly optimized Wizard PC he’d played campaign after campaign. No complaints.

I’d imagine players like that would be far more annoyed by plot armor neutering “trillion mph“ punches than by being sidekicks to demigods.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In an RPG there typically isn't when the author wants it to...

Kinda my point about plot armor making more sense in comics than RPGs.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Um, no. Not really.
There are plenty of examples in the comics of Batman being completely unable to stop Superman from doing what Superman wants to do. None of his "greatest analytical mind" and wealth can do anything about it... except when the author wants it to.

Not only that, Batman was unable to prevent Bane from breaking his back.

He has also been unable to prevent the Joker from racking up a body count of @600 in the comics and over 1000 in movies and TV shows.

Batman may have plans, but his plans don’t always work.

 

[Neonchameleon]

One of the biggest gripes about Mutants & Masterminds several players in a group I was in was how the system handled Autofire attacks. They wanted each shot to get its own roll like other systems do. M&M’s mechanic interfered with how they viewed their PCs’ actions.

Those same guys played D&D for 20 years mainly playing martial PCs while another player almost always played some slight variation of the highly optimized Wizard PC he’d played campaign after campaign. No complaints.

And here I'd say you've put your finger on a problem. You have a group that has adapted to one specific mode of play and wants to see everything through that mode of play. I can think of no RPG that uses fully automatic modern guns and has you roll once per bullet, which is what they would apparently have demanded. And they must have been playing extremely slow fighters to only swing their swords once or twice per six seconds or even per minute.

The problem here is not M&M - ordinary people don't have this problem. It's the bad habits they'd picked up from D&D that in the context of D&D make no sense anyway.

Kinda my point about plot armor making more sense in comics than RPGs.

But if you aren't trying to replicate what happens in the setting why are you using that setting at all other than to deconstruct it?

 

[macd21]

Not only that, Batman was unable to prevent Bane from breaking his back.

He has also been unable to prevent the Joker from racking up a body count of @600 in the comics and over 1000 in movies and TV shows.

Batman may have plans, but his plans don’t always work.

Which can be represented by plot points having limitations. They’re not ‘I win’ buttons, they’re a balancing mechanism. They don’t let the Batman character beat Superdude 100% of the time, but they increase his success rate from what would otherwise be zero.

 

[Umbran]

So that's when we turn to the mechanics. If Batman's player wins the contest, then we know that his anlaytical mind or wealth or whatever (details will of course depend on the minutiae of the resolution system) was enough to beat Superman. If not, then we know -conversely - that they weren't. Perhaps because Batman didn't anticipate that Superman would throw a trillion-times-FTL punch right now!

Yes. The point is that if you are modeling both characters well, the result isn't a foregone conclusion. Superman doesn't automatically win. Batman has talents of similar fictional weight that could counter Superman's abilities. So, we need to use the mechanic.

In the case of MHRP, there is no need for "luck" mechanics because the issue is addressed at a more fundamental system design level.

I take it that this is what @Umbran is getting at in saying "You worry about 'plot armor' because 'plot armor' is a patch to a physics model to make up for its lack of ability to do what the genre asks of it. "

Pretty much.

In real physics, you do not typically use the same equations at different scales - the model we use on the quantum scale is different from the model we use on the normal human scale, and that's different from the model we use an relativistic scales. But, for some reason, we expect the same rules engine to handle Aunt May and Superman's strength. That's silly.

Moreover, when we pay so much attention to physical action, we give short shrift to non-physical things that, in fiction, typically carries a lot of weight. Powers that aren't based in the physics model are undercounted and undervalued. Bruce Wayne's billions are probably only used to determine if he can acquire something expensive in play. Superman doesn't have to think about how his Invulnerability is applied - it is always effective in the instant it becomes relevant. Batman's money, not so much.

So, we put a patch on the game engine that is designed to help us resolve physical tasks, to make up for what the model doesn't do well. And gee, you know, patches are never as good as native design to do the same thing.

In games like MHRP, there is no patch, because the system isn't designed to be a task-based physics engine. It is more a conflict-based fiction engine, with broad concepts of what can be effective.

 

[Umbran]

Batman may have plans, but his plans don’t always work.

And Superman died. So, his strength doesn't always work.

So, there is a question, for each of them, if they will prevail. That's what we have a mechanic for.

I have to ask: In the comics, Batman works with Superman all the time. Somehow, he not only survives, but remains relevant and effective. Is that, in and of itself, a problem for you? Do you find it easy to accept a man who can fly around the world fast enough to travel in time, but find it hard to accept an exquisite mind greater than that of any person at your gaming table might have preparations the player didn't think of before play began?

If that's the basic conflict, your conflict is with the genre, and we can't help you. You are trying to emulate a genre with aspects you don't like, and the best we can say is, "well, don't play games with that aspect."

If your problem is the implementation of making the mind and money competitive with the strength and speed, then we can help you - we are laying out what the issues are with many mechanics that lead to the need for a layered on, kludgey, "plot armor".

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Go take a look at... Shadowrun. A mundane person, who has not spent a lot of their build capacity on being magical, or having lots of cyberware, and so on, can have higher Edge. Edge is the game's luck stat, allowing the player to manipulate their die results somewhat - rolling more dice, rerollng dice, buying off critical fumbles, and the like. Edge is powerful - and you can only have lots of it if you are basically mundane.

I don't remember Edge, or any other luck-type stat, in 2E. Do you know when they added it? Because that seems like a pretty significant genre shift, to suddenly introduce a plot armor stat. Back in 2E, the mundane person simply had no chance against a street samurai, and that seemed like an important part of the setting.

Comic books do not have consistent physics! Comic books are a media in which Squirrel Girl, with the proportional strength and agility of a squirrel, can defeat Galactus off screen, and have that be satisfying!

Squirrel Girl defeated Galactus on screen, and it was satisfying. You might be thinking of her defeat over Thanos.

This is also the series where they do go out of their way to make the physics as consistent as possible, given the seemingly-inconsistent precedents from across the decades. For example, they describe why giant bugs can't exist due to square-cube law, and then make explicit exceptions for Pym particles and cosmic radiation.