help, the pc's are unstoppable [Thread necromancy]

[Nightfall]

*recommends a combo of ferals (at least two packs), 2d6 leonine demons, 2d4 blood horrors, and 1d8 Blade Demons. (Notes these are all demons) Top that off with a Hellfyre worm for support and your party will find itself with sufficently more than it can handle.

 

[boothbey]

I like the suggestions about being just as ruthless as the party is. Turn their tricks against them.

1) Disjunction. This typically fixes a lot of equipment problems.

2) Counter with ninjas. An order of ninjas going after this rogue ninja that is part of the party.

3) Greater Dispell magics. Turn off all those stoneskin and resistance spells.

4) Protection from Good/Evil prevents dominations/compulsions from the enchanter.

5) Slow spells.

6) Fairy Fire on the ninja. Hard to hide with that glow on ya.

7) 100 first level wizards with Magic Missile spells.

8) Contrive a combat where their is a penalty for killing opponents. Targets must be subdued/captured for a victory.

9) Golems. Immune to critical hits and mind affecting spells.

 

[holomachamp]

we already roleplay a lot, so when we do get into combat i want it to memorable, not just another "oh we win again".

thx for all the help guys, splitting them up might be the best way, 8 characters may be more than i can handle.(combat takes forever), I looked back through my campaign notes and i think i know the problem. I allow them to much rest in between battles, if the spellcasters are fully recharged it makes battles much easier.

 

[Umbran]

Re: help, the pc's are unstoppable

the CR concept does not work (probably because we have several powergamers in the group)

Not just because you have powergamers, but because you have eight players. Remember, the CRs are designed with a party half that size in mind, and doubling the party size far more than doubles the party survivability. That's probably why you have your problem of either being too easy or being too hard. Hitting just the right balance can be difficult.

In that sense, splitting them up is a useful thing, as you can bring them back down to where they're more in line with what the guidelines are designed to work with.

It may be time for a little mathematics on your part. You've seen what they tend to do. Figure out what kind of damage these guys deal out, on average. Pick oponents that can take that for a while. Pick them keeping their special abilities in mind - adjust your expected damage is accordingly.

 

[BlackRazor]

Time to sharpen your axe !

Trough my years of gaming I once heard a venerable (40 +) Dm give advice to some beginner.

One of the things he said was:

The DM will always have sufficient force and challenge for any group, at any level. You have infinite resources; they have what you give them.

Your players are pure munchkin? They bite your hand when you try to feed them adventure? Bite Back!

Want to challenge them? Do it.

The first step is to take confidence.
Say it with me: YOU CAN CHALLENGE THEM.

You can make them feel fear and lose HP, knock one or two of them into negative before they win, make them use up their resources.

The second step is to give shape to the challenge.
Say it with me: I WILL USE ALL I CAN TO CHALLENGE THEM

a) Summoned monster. They don’t give XP and pack a punch.
b) Incorporeal undead. Touch attack, 50 % miss chance, and Stat drain or negative energy level
c) Harm. Worse: ranged Harm followed with inflict spell
d) Dispel Magic. Make them lose their buff
e) Anti Magic Sphere: level the playing ground
f) Golem, High DR, Magic Immunity, pack a mean punch, healed by spell
h) Mordenkainen Disjunction. This one a killer
i) If all else fail: Phoenix (from MM2). This baby simply cannot be killed if played well.

Any Dm can give a challenging fight with a few incorporeal undead and an evil cleric to bolster them. If you feel nasty, add a pair of golem and an enemy sorcerer to help them.

The final step is to take control.
Say it with me: I AM IN CONTROL

If your player are going trough your adventure like a stroll in the park, up the ante in real time. Give max HP to your monster and NPC. Give them Potions. You have the power to "Fudge the dice" in order to keep the adventure from becoming a remake of "local basketball team Vs Harlem Globe Trotter"

Parting word: Don’t go all the other way and becomes a new type of unfair killer DM. The idea is to give them a thrill and a night to remember because they really thinked "this could be it..." Not to go out and kill them out of spite.

Remember,

You have infinite resources; they have what you give them.


- Peace

 

[The Forsaken One]

A little swarm of paragorn quicklings with some levels in rogue in a HEAVILY wooded area with a nice dense fog the first coupel of feet over the forest floor....

 

[kkoie]

we already roleplay a lot, so when we do get into combat i want it to memorable, not just another "oh we win again".

thx for all the help guys, splitting them up might be the best way, 8 characters may be more than i can handle.(combat takes forever), I looked back through my campaign notes and i think i know the problem. I allow them to much rest in between battles, if the spellcasters are fully recharged it makes battles much easier.

If you really want to give them a memorable combat encounter, then send them through a gauntlet of encounters.

For example, if you are sending them through a dungeon, then create a list of wandering encounters ahead of time, and when they stop to rest for 8 hours, send an encounter of monsters at them once and hour. When they try to exit the dungeon, don't forget to have them encounter at least half a dozen or more encounters on the way out.

 

[MerakSpielman]

If you really want to give them a memorable combat encounter, then send them through a gauntlet of encounters.

For example, if you are sending them through a dungeon, then create a list of wandering encounters ahead of time, and when they stop to rest for 8 hours, send an encounter of monsters at them once and hour. When they try to exit the dungeon, don't forget to have them encounter at least half a dozen or more encounters on the way out.

A good way of making this work is (and I've posted this elsewhere recently) is to give them a time limit... They have to plow through a large dungeon with no resting because in 6 hours Something Terrible is going to happen (magical explosion, cultists complete uber-demon summoning ritual, the princess will die of poison, etc...). Then try hard to use up all of their spells with the kind of encounters they're used to... Then start upping the ante when they start weakening. Don't make it impossible, but don't go easy on them. Make sure your monsters are genuinely trying to kill the PCs and save their own hides. Pull out all the stops.

 

[Henry]

There's something a lot of people are forgetting.

In a party of 8 characters, that's a party that has TWICE as many actions as a smaller (4-char.) party. If these actions have ANY effect, that's powerful. If their actions have POWERFUL effect, that's DEVASTATING.

The answer here is two-fold.

1. Face them against hordes of lower-level enemies that are not immediately killed by mass damage spells. For your party, creatures that are CR's 8 through 12, introducing approximately 15 to 20 of them can be a difficult challenge. Such creatures do not roll over easily, and pack enough punch such that attrition will make the players think twice about undertaking the encounter. Always leave a means of escape, even if it's one they don't like.
   
   Also, remember that hordes of small creatures are more deadly than one large one. Even against a CR20 dragon, your PC's stand a good chance of killing it just due to the fact that they get 8 attacks versus the creature's one. This has always been the case, no matter what the game.
   
2. As others have said, introduce challanges that Swords and Spells cannot overcome. Natural disasters, the death of a royal family, an invading army of tens of thousands, or simply a horrific prophecy that if someone does not take steps will come to pass.
   [/list=1]

 

[Nine Hands]

Re: help, the pc's are unstoppable

In my campaign of 8 players, challenging them in a battle has gotten difficult. either i underestimate and they blow through it or i over estimate and they get decimated. the CR concept does not work (probably because we have several powergamers in the group) anyways here is the group of eight

1 14th lvl red wizard enchanter ( who can also effect undead with enchantment)

2.) 14th lvl barbarian/tempest totally munchinized

3.)13th lvl fighter/shadow dancer/ninja with shurikens powergamed

4.) 11 lvl drow arcane archer
5.) 13th lvl psion
6.) 13th lvl cleric
7.)12th lvl druid (doesn't use spells always wildshapes
8.)13 lvl rouge/chosen of lloth

the problem is really with the first three, the wiz's DCs are insane(30+), the barbarian mows through almost anything(90+ damage a round), and the ninja can hide in plain sight and is almost undetectable.

i tossed a party of 6 average npc's of thier lvl against them and they hardly broke a sweat. to neutralize the wiz i can string a bunch of battles together, but the other 7 just fill in.

They are all over 11th level. Good. The best way to challenge this group if for the enemies to have a clue. At thier level the party easily falls prey to Scrying, Greater Scrying, and Bardic Knowledge checks. Have the NPCs gather information on the party, learn thier tricks and then come knocking someday fully prepped for combat.

Remember, the party probably does this and if they don't SHAME ON THEM

Also, templates are your friend, these can take a normally mundane enemy and make them much more tougher. Watch out for save or "die" spells or spells that allow no save, they are a PITA.