Hide Skill?

[saupster]

This question came up during a recent session. If a character makes a Hide check versus an opponent, and that opponent fails his Spot check, is the character considered "invisible" (is he considered to have total concealment)? If that character is a rogue, does his opponent lose his Dex bonus to AC, allowing the rogue to make a ranged (within 30 feet) sneak attack?

Example: A character is in a dark alley. That character is within the radius of a Light spell. There is an opponent hidden in the alley (outside the radius of the Light), who is firing a missle weapon at said character. The DM asks the character to make a Spot check (fails), and then the character is attacked. Can that opponent (who has the Back Stabbing ability) make a ranged sneak attack? Also, can that same opponent then move (making his Hide check and the same character again failing his Spot check) to a new spot and make another sneak attack?

Thanks in advance for any and all responses.

Steve

 

[rankarrog]

I don't know if the oppponent is considered "invisible", but the character dosen't see the attack(his spot check failed) and thus he's denied his dextery bonus to this attack, which let's you apply sneak attack damage to the first attack.
After this attack I'd presume the opponent not longer as hidden...

 

[Magus_Jerel]

you aren't actually invisible like the spell -

you ARE unseen with respect to that individual, which means you do get your sneak attack against them as they are unaware of your location.

They also can't attack back - and there is no reasonable way that they could "guess" your location within five feet, as far as I can tell.

Yes, you could move again - but this gives your opponent another chance to spot you.

However - attacking tends to "blow your cover" - unless you are dealing with something that is a sniper-like situation

 

[Shin Okada]

In this case, opponent just caught the character in surprise. So only the opponent take a surprize round and the character is caught flat-footed. Unless the character have Uncanny Dodge, he loses Dex bonus to AC and thus subject to sneak attack. If the opponent take initiative, he can make another sneak attack in the first regular round of that combat, while the character is still caught flat-footed.

Also, if the both guys do not move, the opponent is in dark area and thus should have some amount of concealment against the character. The amount of concealment will depend on how dark the alley is. If the alley is in total darkness (though unlikely) it is a equivalent of invisibility (total concealment, 50 % miss-chance).

 

[dr_nukem]

We've had this exact same discussion in our group.

Invisibility = 100% concealment = 50% miss chance.
Hidden = 100% concealment = 50% miss chance.

Song and Silence covers the missle attack from hidding scenario. Basically the attacker can make a single attack and then re-hide at a -20 to his hide check. If the hide check is successful, the sniper's next attack would be a sneak attack. In this manner, an archer could get 1 sneak attack per round. Just remember the 30' rule for sneak attacks.

If the defender chooses to attack, he would nominate which square to attack. The DM could make a secret roll (the 50% miss chance), if the opponent is is the nominated square AND the attacker hits, then the hidden character would no longer be hidden. However, with a ranged attacker, the chances of picking the correct square AND not missing (due to the concealment) is pretty darn low.

The hidden NPC could also move up and attack the guy in the lit area. If he could move in such a way as to not reveal himself (ie, there is something to hide behind) he could move up to his ranks in Hide and sneak attack the defender. This too is detailed in Song and Silence.

One thing, on Invisible characters... Invisibility is actually WORSE than hidding/move silently. An invisible character can be spotted and heard whereas upon a successful hide/MS check, the PC is gone! (that last bit is my opinion... :-> )

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

One thing, on Invisible characters... Invisibility is actually WORSE than hidding/move silently. An invisible character can be spotted and heard whereas upon a successful hide/MS check, the PC is gone! (that last bit is my opinion... :-> )

An invisible character only needs the succesful MS check, how is only needing one check worse than needing two?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

An invisible character only needs the succesful MS check, how is only needing one check worse than needing two?

I think he is commenting on the dc20 check to notice that an invisible person is somewhere within 30' of you. A really easy check for my scout character to make for example. But heck you still need dc 40 to target said invis person, which is well outside of my range or most peoples range of ability. Also certain spells reveal invis characters, but not hiding ones. Two reasons why an invisible character is well advised to hide while invisible instead of dancing in front of their enemies, making funny faces, because they are invisible.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Ahhh, ok.

But I would still allow a hide check while invisible to replace the default value of 20. That only makes sense to me.

 

[dr_nukem]

A Spot check result of greater than 20 can generally let the character become aware of an invisible creature near the character (though the character can't actually see it).

So, if an invisible character wants to move about undetected, he still has to win an opposed MS/Listen check. His opponents CAN still make a spot check (basically a passive check) to see if they notice something odd (footprints, leaves moving, carpet ruffled, pebble kicked, etc).

So, a rogue who is good at Hidding/MS, is FAR BETTER OFF than the silly Wizard who casts invisibility. The rogue can H/MS an unlimited number of times per day while the wizard can only cast so many spells.

Hide/MS *IS* better! :->

 

[dr_nukem]

Ahhh, ok.

But I would still allow a hide check while invisible to replace the default value of 20. That only makes sense to me.

Yup, just give the invisible rogue a +20 to his hide check...