High Crit Property with Implement Attacks

[Slaved]

If a Weapon is used as an Implement does the High Crit Property apply to that Attack?

 

[gribble]

Interesting question.

Firstly, I think it's clearly the developers intent that it doesn't, even if it isn't explicitly stated.

Secondly, the exact wording is:

A high crit weapon deals more damage when you score a critical hit with it.

I bolded the bits I think are relevant - namely that the critical has to be scored with the weapon. The ability to use a weapon as an implement means exactly that. You're still using it an implement not as a weapon. Of course, the FAQ on Weapon Focus has muddied the waters somewhat here...

The PHB goes on to say:

A critical hit deals maximum weapon damage and an extra 1[W] at 1st–10th levels, an extra 2[W] at 11th–20th levels, and an extra 3[W] at 21st–30th levels.

So any power being used with a high crit weapon as an implement would deal weapon damage (plus the extra)... rather than the damage of the power. This just seems incredibly odd to me.

So I think the RAW are unclear, but when taken to conclusion are nonsensical. I certainly wouldn't allow it as DM.

 

[Tellerve]

Its interesting as this came up in our group and I was initially think opposite of you, gribble. And with the errata of Weapon Focus, I thought maybe my initial thought was correct.

I guess still up in the air, but we play it that you do get it, *shrugs*.

 

[Mirtek]

As it's a property and you gain all properties (but not powers) when using a weapon as an implement, you would gain it.

 

[gribble]

Its interesting as this came up in our group and I was initially think opposite of you, gribble. And with the errata of Weapon Focus, I thought maybe my initial thought was correct.

Yeah, as I pointed out, the Weapon Focus ruling does muddy the waters because it implies that anything not explicitly ruled out (i.e.: proficiency bonus) does apply.

However, I also think either High Crit applies fully, or not at all - there isn't any precident for only part of a rule (i.e.: the extra X[W]) applying. If it applies fully, then on a crit the power no longer does damage as specified by the power, but instead maximum weapon damage. And that is weird - too weird for me to allow.

 

[gribble]

As it's a property and you gain all properties (but not powers) when using a weapon as an implement, you would gain it.

Do you have a source for that? I've checked the Wizard of the Spiral Tower PP, the Swordmage class and the PHB FAQ (with the Weapon Focus ruling), and I can't find any reference to this.

Do you perhaps mean this item in the FAQ?

When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?
You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

Seems pretty clear to me that question is referring specifically to magic items, not mundane ones...

Here's a corollory question then: Should heavy thrown, reach and versatile apply to weapons used as implements?

 

[bganon]

The "Implement" section of the Swordmage summary says that you add any extra damage granted by properties when using the blade as an implement. I'd read this as including "high crit". So Swordmages, at least, should get to use high crit even on implement powers.

Other classes don't seem to say as much, but I'd let them work the same.

 

[gribble]

The "Implement" section of the Swordmage summary says that you add any extra damage granted by properties when using the blade as an implement.

Right, I see it now... was looking at the Swordmage Powers section, which also discusses implements. Very interesting.
I wonder how this works with versatile? If they grasp their weapon in 2 hands to use a power (a free action) they get +1 damage? They can then just switch back to holding it in 1 hand for the rest of the round (and get the extra defence bonus). So they always get +1 damage on implement attacks with a versatile blade?

 

[Danceofmasks]

You know, I think it shouldn't work.

'cos such weapon properties like high crit and brutal are balanced against other stuff like proficiency bonus and damage dice.

It'd be silly for a swordmage to get brutal 1 on implement attacks with a khopesh.

But, silly or not, whether it actually works by RAW is another matter entirely, and not having all the books handy, I'm gonna leave this question alone.

 

[DracoSuave]

It'd be silly for a swordmage to get brutal 1 on implement attacks with a khopesh.

brutal only applies to weapon dice. Not a big deal.