D&D 4E Highlights from the D&D Convention .... 4E reaction (after over 14 hrs of play)

[Sir Brennen]

Combat Challenge is the name of the fighter classes marking. No worries I'm using terminology that wasn't used at DDE I guess. I assure you it is the same difference. We are talking about the exact same thing people are forgetting to do. Funny thing is the two different paladins in the group have never had any problem remembering how Divine Challenge works, that's why at least as far as my group goes, I'm blaming it on the player not caring enough to remember, rather than the system.

Badger, check out the D&DXp sheets on the WotC site. The fighter has TWO abilities, both call "Combat Challenge" - one for marking, the other for getting an immediate attack on a shifted foe. So you aren't actually talking about the same thing...

Still, first time playing at a Con, I can see how both of these abilities require a little more attention on the part of the players. I get the feeling, however, that it'll become second nature to a fighter player, and I agree with other posters, the player having to track these things just like the character would is a good thing, and arguably aids with immersion/verisimilitude/role-playing during combat.

 

[shadowguidex]

Just a hint to other DMs to help simplify the system of initiatives, marks, Powers, and ongoing effects.

Initiative - Get yourself a stack of index cards. Have every player write their characters name on one, and have some designated for the enemies. Each time you call for initiative each player rolls their initiative and hands you their cards, and you roll for the opponents. Sort the cards from highest to lowest, and call peoples names when it's their turn. When they are done, their card goes to the bottom of the deck.

Powers - Have you players write down their powers on index cards. At-Will are white, Encounter Blue, Daily Red. When they use a limited ability they can discard the card so they know it isn't available again.

Marks, Curses, Quarry, etc - Get some poker chips. When your fighter marks a target, place a red poker chip under the figure. When the paladin challenges, put a blue chip under that opponent. When the Hunter Quarries, place a green chip under that opponent's figure, etc. This way you don't have to worry too much about everyone getting confused which opponent is their target.

Ongoing effects - Stick a metal pin into the top of every plastic mini. When that figure is hit by an ongoing effect, place a bead on the pin on that figure. If they are taking fire damage, use a red bead. I don't use this method since I use metal minis but I know of a group that does.

You can buy all of this stuff for very little money.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I feel that the wizard pre-gen has at least one more thing going for him than you gave him credit for: Mage Hand has a minor action means that he can return the fighter's or paladin's thrown weapons. That and the bloodhunt racial ability gives the wizard's player something to think about when targeting his magic missile or blast. But that's about it - other than that, the wizard was rather underwhelming. Maybe if there were more guidance as to how effective illusions would be, I may have been tempted to use Ghost Sound. I knew I should have asked another question before I left!
-George Austin

I'm thinking that pregen was created specifically for optimal area-effect nuking. Even the one other wizard power we've seen - the Ray of Frost the warlock pregen has for some reason - would add a somewhat different tactical approach, though still very Evoker.

 

[Cyronax]

Just a hint to other DMs to help simplify the system of initiatives, marks, Powers, and ongoing effects.

Initiative - Get yourself a stack of index cards. Have every player write their characters name on one, and have some designated for the enemies. Each time you call for initiative each player rolls their initiative and hands you their cards, and you roll for the opponents.

I tried index cards. Generally I found in the groups I DMed, that the players liked to visualize the initiative as it stands (which mayb be slightly meta-gamish), hence our somewhat slower counter setup. The index cards might be worth a revisit though.

I saw some of the most stellar DMing over this last weekend. Fast paced and knew how to keep encounters moving.

I need to go to conventions more often

 

[Psion]

Why does the fighter nee to be the beginner class? For complxity: we are still used to 3.5 and you seem to prefer the non-melee types.

Well, if 4e is really going to the admonition of being "simpler to play", this facet has to show its face somewhere. This was something that concerned me as soon as I heard B09S was going to inform 4e design; looking at the power suites on the character sheet seem to confirm that. Some players don't want to deal with "powers". They just want to roll some dice and do some damage.

 

[SupremeBadgerLord]

Badger, check out the D&DXp sheets on the WotC site. The fighter has TWO abilities, both call "Combat Challenge" - one for marking, the other for getting an immediate attack on a shifted foe. So you aren't actually talking about the same thing...

Still, first time playing at a Con, I can see how both of these abilities require a little more attention on the part of the players. I get the feeling, however, that it'll become second nature to a fighter player, and I agree with other posters, the player having to track these things just like the character would is a good thing, and arguably aids with immersion/verisimilitude/role-playing during combat.

Yeah I'm using my PHB for info not the DDE sheets, still the same diff, you can't use Combat Challenge on a foe who has shifted unless you have marked them prior to said shift. Then again it could have changed in the last two months, or perhaps a slightly simplified version was used at DDE. With that said I'm dropping out of this particular aspect of the thread, didn't want to get wrapped up in the confusion of the two different uses of Combat Challenge that's all. It's all a moot point as far as I'm concerned since the fighter in my group never remembers he has Combat Challenge

 

[Blastin]

Just a hint to other DMs to help simplify the system of initiatives, marks, Powers, and ongoing effects.

Initiative - Get yourself a stack of index cards. Have every player write their characters name on one, and have some designated for the enemies. Each time you call for initiative each player rolls their initiative and hands you their cards, and you roll for the opponents. Sort the cards from highest to lowest, and call peoples names when it's their turn. When they are done, their card goes to the bottom of the deck.

Powers - Have you players write down their powers on index cards. At-Will are white, Encounter Blue, Daily Red. When they use a limited ability they can discard the card so they know it isn't available again.

Marks, Curses, Quarry, etc - Get some poker chips. When your fighter marks a target, place a red poker chip under the figure. When the paladin challenges, put a blue chip under that opponent. When the Hunter Quarries, place a green chip under that opponent's figure, etc. This way you don't have to worry too much about everyone getting confused which opponent is their target.

Ongoing effects - Stick a metal pin into the top of every plastic mini. When that figure is hit by an ongoing effect, place a bead on the pin on that figure. If they are taking fire damage, use a red bead. I don't use this method since I use metal minis but I know of a group that does.

You can buy all of this stuff for very little money.

Ok...first off, I'm Very positive about 4E and am almost certain that I'm gonna switch. Second, I have no problems playing with Minis and am a tabletop wargamer as well.
That being said: good lord...if I have to do all that to keep track of combat....how exactly is that more simple and elegant? This is the first thing about 4E that I have read that has given me second thoughts about switching.

 

[Cyronax]

I feel that the wizard pre-gen has at least one more thing going for him than you gave him credit for: Mage Hand has a minor action means that he can return the fighter's or paladin's thrown weapons. That and the bloodhunt racial ability gives the wizard's player something to think about when targeting his magic missile or blast. But that's about it - other than that, the wizard was rather underwhelming. Maybe if there were more guidance as to how effective illusions would be, I may have been tempted to use Ghost Sound. I knew I should have asked another question before I left!
-George Austin

No body thought of that during all of my games. In fact, I saw no wizard player even used mage-hand, in any of the 13+ gamed in or recounted with friends and convention goers. The timed nature of the events made every second count, since we were competing against a clock in order to get tokens for other stuff (at least most of the Delve groups were like that).

That's a cool idea ... mage hand.

Bloodhaunt on the other hand came up quite frequently and the wizard player was always encouraged to bundle his wand of accuracy (+2 to hit once per encounter) with the blood haunt ability (+1 to hit vs. bloodied creatures), in order to maximize chance of success. So that would be a +3 to the normal +5 for a 1st wiz against any defense. +8 vs. a typical 13-17 static defense (from what I've seen about level-equivalent monsters) is a nice attack routine.

Using that collected bonus with Force Orb (an encounter power) or a daily power was fairly common across game tables. Essentially, once an important monster is bloodied, the tiefling wizard unloads a great attack.

The system encourages that sort of play.

C.I.D.

 

[Hussar]

Cyronax

Thanks for the review. I don't think you sound like a fanboy. I think you sound pretty even handed actually.

It's kinda funny really. I play over OpenRPG. I'm looking at these initiative tracking issues and thinking, wow, I have zero problems here. The program tracks all that stuff for me and tells me when they come up. Score one for the compy.

 

[hong]

Well, if 4e is really going to the admonition of being "simpler to play", this facet has to show its face somewhere. This was something that concerned me as soon as I heard B09S was going to inform 4e design; looking at the power suites on the character sheet seem to confirm that. Some players don't want to deal with "powers". They just want to roll some dice and do some damage.

I don't think I've ever met such a player. Even the "casual gamers" are generally only casual because the campaign doesn't fully engage them, not because the rules are too fiddly. No casual gamer I know has ever said no to more ways of blowing up stuff.