Hit point / damage gap in AD&D vs 3e

[Jdvn1]

Conversion Manual, bottom of this page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a -- Levels stay the same except for multiclassing. AD&D multiclass 6/6 becomes 3E 6+6/3 = 8th character level, e.g.

Interesting. Thanks!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

On one hand, it's sad that spells like Fireball become useless as levels increase. On the other hand, before, high end damage spells were largely useless next to fireball before. That's also pretty sad. The evoker in my 2nd ed game maxed out his number of fireballs (using spell points) because the high level attacks cost more for little to no extra benefit. And then he used some Mnemonic Enhancers in 4th level spells to get even more fireballs. Metamagic provides some options for extending the lifespan of spells.

Saving throws (especially wrt save or die/incapacitation effects) are rather problematic. Even characters with strong saves can be taken out if they roll poorly. Thus, even a low indvidual failure chance skyrockets in total when a character is under sustained magical assault from multiple casters. In one ambush, almost the entire party was taken out in round 1 by a volley of 2 confusions and 2 greater commands. Thus, there's a pressure to push saves as high as they'll go; high level characters often load with with pale green ioun stones, luckstones, and other misc bonus effects since cloaks of resistance aren't enough. If you save 75% of the time against a high level effect, that means your high level character can drop instantly 1/4 quarter of the time. And if the character is hit with 2 such effects, then he only has a ~56% chance of coming through unscathed. That high save doesn't sound so good now, does it?

On the other hand, the pressure to boost saves to handle intensive barrages or tricked out monsters can make casters nearly useless with any given action. A baddy made to live a couple rounds vs a few casters dropping save or die effects on him will have saves so high that spell attacks seem futile. The character above seems fragile in that there's a decent chance he'll die in the encounter, but think of the caster's PoV. He's got a 75% chance to suck each round, AND be out a high level slot. It's frustrating either way.

Stoneskin was nasty in 2nd ed vs giants. I remember the party screwing up in one battle against fire giants, and the 2 wizards were surrounded by like 10 giants as a result. Of course, everything bounced off and the party won.

Instead of boosting saves, I recommend looking into items and spells that make you outright immune to the "instant-death-or-otherwise-out-of-order" effects.
Immunity to Fear, Immunity to Death Effects, Immunity to Compulsions or Charms or Enchantments in general.

The saving throw modifiers and the spell DCs essentially always result in one with a good save having a 50 % chance to succeed. You will probably not be able to change that a lot, even with all save-boosting items, since there is a similar number of DC boosting effects.

I'm playing an Arcane character in an Epic level game right now and I am getting frustrated with how many Epic things are outright immune to this energy type, or that energy type, or this, this, and this energy types. Then there is the evasion issue, then there is the immune to death effects, poisons, mind effects, etc... So what the heck am I supposed to cast? By the time enough rounds pass for me to find a spell that effects the creature enough to make it worth using the battle is over.

Probably no longer any energy damage spells. You need death effects, desintegration, enchantments or maybe even illusions.
But I agree that this is definitely a problem with epic levels, but then, I think the epic level rules suck anyway. :/

Plus my big thing is being a summoner. Summoning creatures to fight epic monsters is a joke. The DR of the creature is usually enough to totally ignore anything the summoned creatures can do, assuming they don't have some kind of protection circle going full time to keep summoned creatures away from them to begin with.

Summoning is already weak below level 20 (unless you get Summon Nature's Ally), so I am not very surprised. Maybe you really ought to look into the Planar Binding or Gate Spells, hoping you get something really powerful out of it, even if it costs a lot.

Playing Epic is cool with a fighter type, and even the cleric, but I am finding it sucking big time as a pure Arcane caster, even with ramped up meta-magicked spells. I can't even cast buff spells on the party because they are already buffed with magic items that buff them way better than my crappy spells can anyways.

This might be a matter of teamwork - as long as characters know they will be buffed, they should probably hold back on such items. But at epic level, especially the stat boosters probably become pathetic (+4 vs. an epic +8?), so the really useful buffs naturally become fewer. Haste, Magic Circle vs Evil (remember, this essentially makes people immune to compulsions) and a few other spells might still prove useful..

 

[Hussar]

Summoning is already weak below level 20 (unless you get Summon Nature's Ally), so I am not very surprised. Maybe you really ought to look into the Planar Binding or Gate Spells, hoping you get something really powerful out of it, even if it costs a lot.

Really? I played a summoner and found him extremely effective. Battlefield control and mooks to plug up lines work extremely well. Plus, grappling is ALWAYS a touch attack. I used my summonings to draw the AOO's and then went straight for the grapple. Or trip. I didn't worry overmuch about the damage I could do, I was more concerned with neutralizing the opponent.

That was my experience anyway.

Something that I NEVER see the casters do that always bewilders me is counterspell. A wand of dispelling isn't THAT expensive. If you're worried about getting bombarded by spells, just counterspell. It works fairly well. Granted, at very high levels, you need a Greater Dispel Magic, but, hey, get the party to fork over the cash for a rod of absorption. And, start buffing the party against magic. Screw buffing for damage, just make sure the bad guys can't drop your guys.

The single biggest mistake I see made by players is completely ignoring defense while trying to maximize offense.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I dont find it sad that a fighter can shrug off fireballs. The fighter should be the undisputed master of combat. IMO, a fighter should beat an equal level wizard HANDILY. ALL he does is fight. He contributes jack squat outside of combat, unlike a wizard who has scads of utility/divination spells, a rogue who has tons of skills, etc. IMO, the fighter isnt powerful enough. In future editions, they need to crank him up several notches, or give him more utility.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

A group of 8th level PCs could clear out an entire hall full of Hill Giants. In 3rd ed, you are actually more vulnerable at higher levels than at lower ones due to increasing number of Save or Die / Nerf effects with high DC Saves, monsters who are virtually guaranteed to hit you every round (and often with PA boosts behind them) and with gobs of damage, easy fubaring grapples and so on.

This really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, however, one wizard with a decent DC and the MAGIC JAR spell can take out a room full of giants by himself in either edition.

DS

 

[Victim]

Instead of boosting saves, I recommend looking into items and spells that make you outright immune to the "instant-death-or-otherwise-out-of-order" effects.
Immunity to Fear, Immunity to Death Effects, Immunity to Compulsions or Charms or Enchantments in general.

The saving throw modifiers and the spell DCs essentially always result in one with a good save having a 50 % chance to succeed. You will probably not be able to change that a lot, even with all save-boosting items, since there is a similar number of DC boosting effects.

You don't need to convince me of the defensive benefits of immunities. Mind Blank, Deathward, Hero's Feast, Energy Immunity, etc all rock. Still, they have limits just like saves.

But how does using immunities to supplement saves deal with this issue:

As for 3E at higher level, I find it a good thing that those NERF spells to increase save DC's are there, otherwise the characters would almost always make their saves, making spellcasters just about useless.

Is dealing with immune foes any less frustrating than dealing with foes that save most of the time?

 

[Treebore]

You don't need to convince me of the defensive benefits of immunities. Mind Blank, Deathward, Hero's Feast, Energy Immunity, etc all rock. Still, they have limits just like saves.

But how does using immunities to supplement saves deal with this issue:



Is dealing with immune foes any less frustrating than dealing with foes that save most of the time?

Nope. It is worse when they actually roll to save. you have hope that you might get to do some damage, then it is crushed when they roll a 2 and make the save.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Nope. It is worse when they actually roll to save. you have hope that you might get to do some damage, then it is crushed when they roll a 2 and make the save.

Where do these figures come from?

I've never had a problem playing mages into the high levels, and save-or-suffer/die spells are my favorites. Maybe your DM cheats or deliberately uses outsiders and dragons rather than other high CR opponents.

 

[Hussar]

Nope. It is worse when they actually roll to save. you have hope that you might get to do some damage, then it is crushed when they roll a 2 and make the save.

Sounds more like an inability to adapt to high level play than a problem with the game to me. While it's possible to get three insanely high saves (on player in my game has done so), it's very difficult, meaning that someone is likely going to fail often enough.

Besides, not everyone is going to have improved evasion and a high ref save, so, you can still use boring old direct damage spells as long as you want.

Or, you can realize that direct damage spells are boring and start to use the more fun spells like ones that have no saving throws. Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray are your friend.

 

[Treebore]

The party is seriously buffed, with magic items just about every stat is into the 30's, AC's are into the 60's and 70's, Initiatives are over 15, in one case a 22, saves are all in the 30 to 40 range between rings/whatever of resistance +10, ability bonuses being +8 to +16, class saves to will giving bonuses, so will saves are in the 40's. Totally ugly.