D&D has always been on the luck and skill thing from 1e right the way through to 3,5. PF, and 4e.
Originally Posted by AD&D DMG, p.82
It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).
Originally Posted by AD&D DMG, p.82
Consider a character who is a 10th level fighter with an 18 constitution. This character would have an average of 5% hit points per die, plus a constitution bonus of 4 hit points, per level, or 95 hit points! Each hit scored upon the character does only a small amount of actual physical harm - the sword thrust that would have run a 1st level fighter through the heart merely grazes the character due to the fighter's exceptional skill, luck, and sixth sense ability which caused movement to avoid the attack at just the right moment. However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points.
Originally Posted by 3.5 SRD
(and unsurprisingly identical to the PF SRD)
What Hit Points Represent
Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.
If you read the quotes you will quickly see that HP aren't the same in 1e as in 3.5 and PF. Certainly it is said in those AD&D quotes that HP work a certain way. All it says, per the SRD, in 3.5 and PF is that HP are the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. That isn't the same as saying that the blow didn't occur or that it was dodged, parried, a near miss, etc. It is akin to saying that the stab in the gut didn't kill you, but it still occurred.
A wizard isn't expected to use their hit points in combat - they should be avoiding the front lines, and if a wizard is taking more than trivial damage something is going wrong. A fighter is expected to go toe to toe with the enemy and you can't do that wthout them attacking you.
A wizard never runs out of cantrips.
What about a fighter with a bow? Problem solved.
Also, you have nailed my problem with cantrips, both in 5e and PF.
Actually I've rewatched the die hard movies and come to the realization that John Mclean must have died at some point in the first one. It is IMPOSSIBLE to not be dead after the amount of damage he suffered in each movie. He gets shot like 18 times in each film and just keeps on coming. He isn't human, he's a terminator.
Here is my counterpoint. I recognize that flavorwise, people like the idea of a gritty world where wounds take a while to heal or at least are somewhat realistic.
My question though: how often does it come up in a typical game? I can tell you that the parties I DMed and played in under 3e had no issues guzzling healing points and hitting themselves with Lesser Vigor Wands (because really, CLW wands are so last season).
Currently the healing rules are modular enough that they can be altered to the taste of the DM running the world. He can make the healing rules more gritty or less. So the question is....where should the default baseline be set?
My answer....where the majority of people play their games.
So....where do most people play? Do people commonly have their characters rest normally....or are they almost entirely relying on magical healing? If its the latter, than the baseline should be stronger nonmagical healing....and let those who want their gritty game tweak to taste.
It is hard to argue against modularity and a "dial" for the game, but I am clearly not the only one who feels that the dial should exist in EVERY playtest, not just the last one. Otherwise people who don't like the full HP on a nights rest are going to be disappointed (to say the least).
As far as your first question, how often does this come up? Not too often I'll grant. But then again the issue of CLW wands never came up in our games either. However, I always found it appropriate that IF a party member fell below 0 and there was no cleric in the party that they could either get a temple-cleric to heal him up, or spend a couple weeks until he was out of bed.
[tangent] I've long argued that long rests, not a day but weeks or months instead, are something that haven't been addressed and by the 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons should finally be worked on. There are countless issues that arise when time is no longer measured in rounds but in hours and days. How often does a wizard get his spells and how often can he use them to create things is just one example. These are all issues I would love to see them raise and work on. Sadly I don't see it happening, but I wish it would. [/tangent]
Because hit points to me do not and have never felt like physical damage. I cut my RP teeth on GURPS. In GURPS when I get hit by an orc with an axe, I know about it. I'm taking shock penalties. Where he hits matters even if I'm a pretty powerful adventurer.
In D&D if I'm a fifth level fighter in any edition, an orc can hit me as hard as he likes with an axe. I might say ow. I might play up the hit professional-wrestling style. But ultimately, despite the strength of the orc I am not even slowed. I'm just going to smack the orc back. If the orc had critted me in an even slightly realistic system like GURPS or Rolemaster (and that was my second RPG - Rolemaster or rather its lite version MERP) I'd be looking at brains coming out of the ruins of my head.
There is literally no way I can understand an orc attacking an unarmoured or lightly armoured man with an axe, doing the maximum possible physical damage he can, and that man being still standing. Unless hit points are largely a meta-resource.
Literally the only hit point loss that to me feels like serious damage as a PC in D&D is a hit that knocks me the wrong side of 0hp. The rest might be nasty bruises, but they certainly aren't being hit by an orc with an axe.
I therefore can't reconcile the combination of "Hit points as physical damage" with the intentionally cinematic system set up by gygax for swashbuckling fights and greater endurance. So I consider the luck to be the overwhelmingly dominant part until it goes below 0hp
So a dual pool of hp would work? One that's depleted first and restores overnight?
Talking about 'incessant chatter' works better when you aren't actually mischaracterising my position. Which is that D&D is a game that needs to be balanced. And one of the balance systems is that everyone should be on the same recharge - I want the wizards hit but will accept a boost to recovery for the really high magic worlds and wizards you want. You have continually evaded this point. Further I consider that the overwhelming majority of hp are luck and skill - see my orc for an illustration why. I don't think damage is just physical damage - but it only starts feeling like primarily physical damage the wrong side of 0hp. This is an interpretation of the rules that works and doesn't contradict them.
And long periods of recuperation is what I have in my games. However the balance point for this is apparently anathema to you. You want your magical people to be automatically infused with magic every day but it is somehow anathema to speed up recovery times for fighters when there is that much magic flying around and when fighter toughness is already magical - able to take a hit to the chest from an orc with an axe without slowing.
Thank you for bringing up GURPS and the issue of taking an axe hit to the chest, it raised a curious point I want to discuss.
Wouldn't MOST of the issues you describe above be solved by them reducing the overall number of HP? For that matter wouldn't reducing the number of HP solve the dragon-fire and cliff-falling issues as well?
What if a 10th level fighter had closer to 30 HP instead of 80 or 100. That fall dealing 25 damage would kill a lower level fighter who has 10, 15 or 20 HP but it would allow a 10th level fighter with 30 HP to JUST walk away from the fall. If he had been damaged by goblins before jumping he would be as dead as those lower level fighters too.
The problem raised be 5e is that the top half of your HP are superficial, the bottom half are slightly more substantial and that below 0 you are really in trouble. What if the distance was much closer to tread. If that goblin doing 3 damage was less significant but the orc who did 10 meant something.
They also need to come up with a GOOD form of fatigue, rest and recovery which deviates entirely from the terms we know right now. Come up with a system where the party DOES feel exhausted after journeying all day and no matter how many HP they have they aren't going to fight as well as being fresh. Have a system where a bad nights sleep doesn't just hurt your HP recovery but also means you are sore and perhaps can't assault the dungeon as well today. None of these things are adequately explained in any edition of DnD I've ever seen, especially not well explained by the -2 (or whatever it is) for "fatigue" in recent editions.
I just hope everyone realizes that we'll never get to the various "dials" and get them correct until the very first dial gets set and works right.
So even if you don't like this first bit of fluff and its connection with hit points... just play and test it as-is anyway so that they can make sure the mechanics work. Because the sooner they can get past this first set of rules, the sooner they can start introducing the other dials for you. The foundation has to be solid before you can start futzing with everything else.
If a specific dial doesn't work for you why shouldn't you let the designers know that? I spent too long last time hoping they would change something to more my liking. I gave feedback, certainly, but things never got better. It led to me not investing in the game then and if WotC doesn't listen to feedback and incorporate it carefully into the new models of the game then they aren't going to get me to invest in 5e either.
