D&D General Hot Take: D&D Has Not Recovered From 2E to 3.0 Transition

[GMforPowergamers]

Girdle of Giant Strength wearing Dart specialists - like the one I had in my game before covid - are even worse. Trust me on this.

Yeah the 2e dart throwing took a bit to figure out but was a funny way to win the DPR race

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Yeah the 2e dart throwing took a bit to figure out but was a funny way to win the DPR race

The martial arts punching rules coupled with cestus (spiked gauntlet) specialization was pretty rad too. One of the guys way back when had some battlerager/cleric combo wombo that was a friggin monster.

 

[Zardnaar]

The martial arts punching rules coupled with cestus (spiked gauntlet) specialization was pretty rad too. One of the guys way back when had some battlerager/cleric combo wombo that was a friggin monster.

Fighter/thief backstabbing anything large or bigger with a lance charge attack off a mount.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Remember- there's only two kinds of math. The kind you understand, and the kind you aren't clever enough to get yet.

I prefer the second kind for my taxes.

There are only 10 kinds of people. Those who count in binary, and those who do not.

 

[Deekin]

That's an odd claim. BA doesn't eliminate the treadmill.

In 5e, for example, DCs scale and so do proficient saves. At an equivalent rate, no less. That's a treadmill. All BA means is that, unlike 3e, your non-proficient saves will often have a better than 5% chance of success, because the gap between best and worst is narrower.

The difference between a Good Save and Bad saves at various levels in 3.5 and 5e

	5e Prof Save	5e Non-Prof Save	Difference	3.5 Good Save	3.5 Bad Save	Difference
1st level	2+Stat	Stat	2	2+Stat	Stat	2
5th level	3+Stat	Stat	3	4+Stat	1+Stat	3
10th level	4+Stat	Stat	4	7+Stat	3+Stat	4
15th level	5+Stat	Stat	5	9+Stat	5+Stat	4
20th level	6+Stat	Stat	6	12+Stat	6+Stat	6

Hmmm, Doesn't look all that different to me.
In Fact, at 15th level, your saves are closer in 3.5 than they are in 5e.

 

[Zardnaar]

The difference between a Good Save and Bad saves at various levels in 3.5 and 5e

	5e Prof Save	5e Non-Prof Save	Difference	3.5 Good Save	3.5 Bad Save	Difference
1st level	2+Stat	Stat	2	2+Stat	Stat	2
5th level	3+Stat	Stat	3	4+Stat	1+Stat	3
10th level	4+Stat	Stat	4	7+Stat	3+Stat	4
15th level	5+Stat	Stat	5	9+Stat	5+Stat	4
20th level	6+Stat	Stat	6	12+Stat	6+Stat	6

Hmmm, Doesn't look all that different to me.
In Fact, at 15th level, your saves are closer in 3.5 than they are in 5e.

Yeah can depend on cheese as well.

DCs are 10+spell level+ ability score though in 3E.

 

[James Gasik]

It's true that bad saves in 3e were also pretty terrible, even though they did improve, unlike bad saves in 5e. The problem was, most things base their save DC's off of ability scores that are high (not always, see some undead with terrible Charisma, or poison using enemies with mediocre Constitution), and of course their Hit Dice, which are almost always more than the PC's they are facing- while a bad save is probably based off an ability score that is a secondary concern for your class.

And of course, there was no real excuse for character classes with two bad saves, with the Rogue probably being the big loser here- Fortitude and Will saves can take you out of battle instantly, while Reflex saves are usually just damage prevention.

3e therefore leaned heavily on magic items to correct this problem, along with ways to get immunities, thus you could find a way to protect your Fighter from being Dominated every other combat.

In 5e, magic items do not tend to be readily available, or be the ones that can save you, and gaining immunities is largely the province of spells, like Heroes' Feast- probably one of the best reasons to have a Cleric in your party.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The difference between a Good Save and Bad saves at various levels in 3.5 and 5e

	5e Prof Save	5e Non-Prof Save	Difference	3.5 Good Save	3.5 Bad Save	Difference
1st level	2+Stat	Stat	2	2+Stat	Stat	2
5th level	3+Stat	Stat	3	4+Stat	1+Stat	3
10th level	4+Stat	Stat	4	7+Stat	3+Stat	4
15th level	5+Stat	Stat	5	9+Stat	5+Stat	4
20th level	6+Stat	Stat	6	12+Stat	6+Stat	6

Hmmm, Doesn't look all that different to me.
In Fact, at 15th level, your saves are closer in 3.5 than they are in 5e.

You're overlooking all of the other ways that 3.x had to boost those numbers beyond the bounds of class, such as feats, magic items, etc. For the most part, those don't exist in 5e.

In 3.x you could have a cloak of resistance +5 (for example), which added +5 to all of your saves. Now compare the good saves of the guy with a cloak of resistance to the poor saves of any other member of the party without such an item and you start to see the dramatic gap. And the cloak was far from the only such modifier.

What's the closest equivalent in 5e? A ring of protection, which grants +1 to all saves, and is an attunement item? Not even remotely close.

 

[Garthanos]

The difference between a Good Save and Bad saves at various levels in 3.5 and 5e

	5e Prof Save	5e Non-Prof Save	Difference	3.5 Good Save	3.5 Bad Save	Difference
1st level	2+Stat	Stat	2	2+Stat	Stat	2
5th level	3+Stat	Stat	3	4+Stat	1+Stat	3
10th level	4+Stat	Stat	4	7+Stat	3+Stat	4
15th level	5+Stat	Stat	5	9+Stat	5+Stat	4
20th level	6+Stat	Stat	6	12+Stat	6+Stat	6

Hmmm, Doesn't look all that different to me.
In Fact, at 15th level, your saves are closer in 3.5 than they are in 5e.

Yeah can depend on cheese as well.

DCs are 10+spell level+ ability score though in 3E.

Cheese?

hmmmm Stat divergence is a thing... Remember if you only have to worry about 3 stats and 3 saves (3e and 4e) keeping those less divergent themselves is usually far easier and in 5e you have twice as many stats and twice as many saves to keep shored up. And what seems like far fewer resources to do so.

 

[Redwizard007]

While the white room theorizing about this is interesting, I can't remember a single time in the last 8 years where a PC has been taken out of a fight by a bad save. A round or 2, sure, but nothing encounter ending. Playing pre 3.0 games it happened regularly. Sure, that is anecdotal, but I can't be the only one seeing this.