House of the Dragon spoiler thread

[payn]

The "realism" argument is silly. This is a story with magic, dragons and zombies. There's no requirement for any of this.

And, separately, there's no need to show us graphic violence in loving close-ups, especially when it's not portrayed that way for the straight male characters. The Sansa rape scene could have been we see her looking scared, the door closes, we hear a muffled scream. The showrunners chose to depict violence against women on screen.

Folks here are getting pretty defensive about this. If you're secretly the showrunners, posting on ENWorld is a weird use of your time. And if you're GRRM, I think you know how we'd prefer how you spend your time.

For everyone else, you're allowed to watch and enjoy the show. There's no need to ride to the defense of a bunch of Hollywood millionaires. But everything you're watching on screen is an authorial choice, not something that "has" to happen. And some of their choices are questionable (and I'm not just talking about the writing of the last two seasons of Game of Thrones).

This is very ironic since you bring the subject up repeatedly, in several threads, for a show you don't even like.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You seem to have a general distaste for the material of Martin

You're really jumping to conclusions here.

I have seen and experienced more horrific stuff in real life than I hope most posters here ever will and I have a remarkably high tolerance for it.

But there is a pattern in both the books and especially the TV shows and it's not subtle.

According to interviews with The Hollywood Reporter and elsewhere, they put a lot of thought into the violence against women, because they think it's important to show it.

Director Sapochnik told The Hollywood Reporter this production instead “pulls back” on the amount of consensual sex in the series; however, sexual assault is still very much present in the script. According to Sapochnik, the approach is done “carefully and thoughtfully” when bringing the stories of sexual violence to the screen, following criticisms of “Game of Thrones” portrayals.

“[We] don’t shy away from it,” Sapochnik explained. “If anything, we’re going to shine a light on that aspect. You can’t ignore the violence that was perpetrated on women by men in that time. It shouldn’t be downplayed and it shouldn’t be glorified.”

That's what I mean about authorial choices. Showing consensual sex is too much (?!), but when bad stuff is happening to women, they're going to "shine a light on it."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

This is very ironic since you bring the subject up repeatedly, in several threads, for a show you don't even like.

Please stop deciding what I like and I don't like. I am saying I don't like specific choices. Please stop taking my feelings about a television show so personally.

 

[billd91]

The "realism" argument is silly. This is a story with magic, dragons and zombies. There's no requirement for any of this.

Well, that's a question for the author and the choices he makes in his art. But if GRRM wants to write a world with at least some historical antecedents to accompany his fantastic elements, that isn't necessarily a cause to think he needs therapy.

 

[payn]

Please stop deciding what I like and I don't like. I am saying I don't like specific choices. Please stop taking my feelings about a television show so personally.

Again, with the irony. It's not personal, nothing I have said is aimed at you specifically. I've only addressed your comments.

 

[Mercurius]

@Whizbang Dustyboots , I don't think you are being called out for not liking grimdark. To be honest, I'm not a huge fan myself; I loved Game of Thrones because it was very well done, with great characters and story, and really captured the feel of Martin's world in a way that is rare in fantasy cinema. Meaning, I liked the show in spite of the grimdarkishness, not because of it. While I didn't revel in the grimdark, it didn't bother me because it made sense within the context of the world.

Similarly, I'm not a fan of whimsy, which we could say is the opposite of grimdark. But I can also enjoy a whimsical story if told well.

I think what you're being called out for (or disagreed with) is drawing a line between the grimdark nature of the shows and some kind of misogyny or mental issue on Martin's part ("he needs therapy"). I don't think that's fair, at least looking at the shows and books as a whole and how Martin writes women in general. If anything, I think he should be lauded for his writing of women - how they are every bit as central to the story as men are, despite the ubiquity of sexism in the world, and the fact that they are every bit as complex, multi-faceted, etc.

Meaning, not only are the elements that you don't like not particularly focused on women (that is, in a way incongruent with the world and themes of the show), but they are simply part of the larger genre conventions of grimdark/gritty Medieval fantasy.

This is not to say that Medievalist fantasy has to be grimdark. Guy Gavriel Kay writes Medievalist/"Rennaissancian" fantasy and is far from grimdark, and is never accused of being unrealistic or not accurate to the genre, afaik. If you're saying that GoT excessively fetishizes violence and suffering (aka, "torture porn") I think you have a valid argument. But to equate all this with misogyny is uncharitable, to say the least.

I mean it is a bit like watching a Nordic Noir show and saying, "The showrunners fetishize murder - how gross; and why is it always gray and cloudy, with no sunshine and rainbows? How tedious." Or watching a whimsical fantasy and saying, "This show is so fluffy - the writers are completely divorced from reality...why isn't it grittier?"

TLDR: You don't like grimdark. I get it. To paraphrase Bobby Brown, that's your prerogative. Maybe that's enough? No one is going to (or should) challenge you on that. But your equation of GoT's grimdark elements with misogyny on Martin's part is tenuous at best, and sounds a bit witch-hunty/false accusatory, so people will respond.

 

[Zardnaar]

No one's forcing anyone to watch or read GoT. It's not for everyone and that's ok.

 

[Tonguez]

So just for clarity the whole reveal at the end with Qarl amd his ball headed companion rowing out to sea was all part of Laenor amd Rhynaera’s original plan?

 

[Zardnaar]

So just for clarity the whole reveal at the end with Qarl amd his ball headed companion rowing out to sea was all part of Laenor amd Rhynaera’s original plan?

Seems so. I think Laenor is doing a runner with his boyfriend to one of the free cities.

 

[BRayne]

So just for clarity the whole reveal at the end with Qarl amd his ball headed companion rowing out to sea was all part of Laenor and Rhynaera’s original plan?

I think in retrospect it's a "let's avoid burying our gays too explicitly" even if this is a tragic story where everyone dies