It is that straining on the GM to design a +2 encounter instead of a +3 one? *boggle*
How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"
- Thread starter Kinneus
- Start date
It is that straining on the GM to design a +2 encounter instead of a +3 one? *boggle*
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
I've got a player that acts this rudely towards others' choices. Telling someone that their character sucks is no way to behave. Constructive criticism or pointing out areas you might encounter trouble in a more tactful manner is much more acceptable.
Our raging little buddy even criticizes class choices. I'm getting a chance to play 4E again and my choice of a beastmaster ranger* got him all riled up again. My choice tied into the WotBS campaign well and I'm trying to balance holding up my end of things with the roleplaying aspects. I've learned to look past his rudeness and overbearing opinions to find the good advice for potential pitfalls, but only because we are good friends.
My advice then is to only broach the subject if you can find a way to do it politely and constructively. Until you learn more about the player's choices you don't know if he understands the choice he made.
*Anyone who is interested please refer to the "Adrana's Diary" link in my sig.
Our raging little buddy even criticizes class choices. I'm getting a chance to play 4E again and my choice of a beastmaster ranger* got him all riled up again. My choice tied into the WotBS campaign well and I'm trying to balance holding up my end of things with the roleplaying aspects. I've learned to look past his rudeness and overbearing opinions to find the good advice for potential pitfalls, but only because we are good friends.
My advice then is to only broach the subject if you can find a way to do it politely and constructively. Until you learn more about the player's choices you don't know if he understands the choice he made.
*Anyone who is interested please refer to the "Adrana's Diary" link in my sig.
Lord Xtheth
Explorer
Does this character actually suck though? All I've seen to warrant any "sucking" is a semi-high stat as a prime instead of an optimized stat in a prime.
What hasn't been addressed is the players abilities. A 14 isn't that big of a downfall at all. In fact, the stat array of 14,14,13,13,12,12 offers a wide variety of skill bonuses and a bonus in everything! As mostly a DM, I see this as a positive thing, not negative.
So what he doesn't do 2 points better in combat? He does have a total of 6 points of better than you at other things... like skill challenges (based on my stat array above).
If a person's character was meant to be played a spacific way, and no other way otherwise it would "suck" we wouldn't have options at all.
I like seeing characters that aren't always "the absolute best in the world" at one thing, and mediocre at best at everything else.
What hasn't been addressed is the players abilities. A 14 isn't that big of a downfall at all. In fact, the stat array of 14,14,13,13,12,12 offers a wide variety of skill bonuses and a bonus in everything! As mostly a DM, I see this as a positive thing, not negative.
So what he doesn't do 2 points better in combat? He does have a total of 6 points of better than you at other things... like skill challenges (based on my stat array above).
If a person's character was meant to be played a spacific way, and no other way otherwise it would "suck" we wouldn't have options at all.
I like seeing characters that aren't always "the absolute best in the world" at one thing, and mediocre at best at everything else.
I see a lot of different takes on this. I don't play 4e, couldn't say in an edition-specific sense if 14 INT and swordmage is a problem.
I do know, that we don't have enough information about the PC and there's a lot of assumptions being made.
Was 14 the best he rolled? If he didn't have high numbers to work with...
Why do some assume that he can just FIX his PC. In my land, what's done is done, and barring some specific RAW rules for changing the PC, you don't get to re-roll or shuffle stats.
Did the player have a specific concept or plan, that isn't obvious. Swordmage implies a fighter-wizard multi-class. Maybe since he planned on fighting, he put his good scores in STR, CON and DEX? Not saying that was a good idea per 4e rules, but you never know.
Why is it the OP's business? there are some people who can give advice well, and some people who don't take it well. If he don't know the other player well enough, it's best he leave it well enough alone. Let Darwin decide if the build was good.
The real key to judging a sucky character is in play. If you didn't know the stats, and the game was played, was the PC useful? Or was it pretty sucky? That's what matters, and that's what your PC is supposed to be operating on as character knowledge.
I do know, that we don't have enough information about the PC and there's a lot of assumptions being made.
Was 14 the best he rolled? If he didn't have high numbers to work with...
Why do some assume that he can just FIX his PC. In my land, what's done is done, and barring some specific RAW rules for changing the PC, you don't get to re-roll or shuffle stats.
Did the player have a specific concept or plan, that isn't obvious. Swordmage implies a fighter-wizard multi-class. Maybe since he planned on fighting, he put his good scores in STR, CON and DEX? Not saying that was a good idea per 4e rules, but you never know.
Why is it the OP's business? there are some people who can give advice well, and some people who don't take it well. If he don't know the other player well enough, it's best he leave it well enough alone. Let Darwin decide if the build was good.
The real key to judging a sucky character is in play. If you didn't know the stats, and the game was played, was the PC useful? Or was it pretty sucky? That's what matters, and that's what your PC is supposed to be operating on as character knowledge.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
can someone please tell me where this idea that an 18=typical comes from? It isn't in any book, and it isn't what I have seen in LFR, heck bith lable 16 as avrage and typical...
just becuse I now feel I must I will break down the combat math...
1st level
16 attack stat and a +2 prof weapon Vs AC, or a IMp Vs Nads
Monster AC 15 or Nads 13... both need 10's to hit
Solder (AKA really tough sob) monster 17AC or 13 Nads... the weapon weilder now needs a 12...
5th level
increase attack stat at 4th level and have a +2 weapon or implment (still +2 prof)
attack bonus +9 Vs AC (19-21) or +7 Vs Nads (17)
11th level
Increase attack stat at 8th and 11th now you have a 19, have a +3 item
attack bonus +14Vs AC (25-27) or +12 Vs NADs (23)
[sblock=your swordmage]1st level
14 attack stat and a +3 prof weapon(longsword) Vs AC, or a IMp Vs Nads
Monster AC 15 or Nads 13... AC need 10's to hit, Nads 11
Solder (AKA really tough sob) monster 17AC or 13 Nads... the AC now needs a 12...
5th level
increase attack stat at 4th level and have a +2 weapon or implment (still Longsword)
attack bonus +9 Vs AC (19-21) or +7 Vs Nads (17)
11th level
Increase attack stat at 8th and 11th now you have a 17, have a +3 item
attack bonus +14Vs AC (25-27) or +12 Vs NADs (23)[/sblock]
look at my sblock... he is pulling his own wait... still having BETTER then 50/50 at 1st level...
not by my math... unless of cource there is some error I made... please if you do say I did show your work...
witch my math shows he is at the minimum level (maybe even above it I still have not seen the full character)
by the way here is another suggestion to go with my luck blade idea from above....
Arcane power said:
a Dragonborn with a fire breathweapon and alot of fire attacks with a 14 main stat can be ABOVE average on his hit rate... heck it stacks with expertise (an un named bonus) allowing it to be even MORE accurate...
Mark Chance
Boingy! Boingy!
GMforPowergamers
Legend
If 4E involves attacking nads, maybe it is a game system I'd enjoy.
Non Ac Defences or NADs for short... just remeber fighters are honnrable and almost never hit you in your NADs, rouges can be sneakey and try to stab you in your NADs, BUT wizards always go fro the NADs
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
If you posted this in the rules forum...you be getting either "tell him" or "tell him NOW".
DMing new and casual gamers over the years, I have seen this fairly often: player makes a weak charecter, sometimes for a "good reason", finds he likes the charecter less and less--or worse feels that the game is somehow unfair--but doesn't really know why. This may or may not lead to a change in charecter (which may also be weak) or even some sort of mini-crisis.
In this case, if the charecter has int based powers, he will hit with and use them less, and it will be a little less fun to play. I find it extremely unlikely that this was part of some clever plan to enhance role-playing. There is a whole group of laid-back gamers out there who are not like ENWorld posters. They don't really think about the game that much, but they still like it. And if he is new, he have made a mistake, it does happen.
The DM probably should have stepped in at chargen and said something. As noted above, you might want to go back to the DM and mention the issue.
DMing new and casual gamers over the years, I have seen this fairly often: player makes a weak charecter, sometimes for a "good reason", finds he likes the charecter less and less--or worse feels that the game is somehow unfair--but doesn't really know why. This may or may not lead to a change in charecter (which may also be weak) or even some sort of mini-crisis.
In this case, if the charecter has int based powers, he will hit with and use them less, and it will be a little less fun to play. I find it extremely unlikely that this was part of some clever plan to enhance role-playing. There is a whole group of laid-back gamers out there who are not like ENWorld posters. They don't really think about the game that much, but they still like it. And if he is new, he have made a mistake, it does happen.
The DM probably should have stepped in at chargen and said something. As noted above, you might want to go back to the DM and mention the issue.
What you just said here sounds very extremist and unreasonable to me.
Certainly, it is a group game, and players should work together and make PCs that work together. Nor should a player build a wizard that can't cast spells or other silliness.
That's a far cry from implying the player has no right to decide on the kind of character he wants to build, or the design choices to make.
Putting a 14 in a prime stat is NOT that extreme. We don't know what stats he had to work with, or what he did put his best stat in and all the other things he did to maximize THAT investment. Nor do you, I suspect.
I don't do point buy, and I wouldn't in 4e either. 4d6 keep the best 3 yields 12.5 on average. It is mighty presumtious to assume that a PC must have an 18 stat when that is a reasonably uncommon result to roll.
Similar Threads
- Poll
